Boeotians

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Sun May 22, 2005 10:53 am

Can anyone here tell me about the Boeotians? Armor and such?

Maredudd · Post by **Maredudd** » Sun May 22, 2005 11:27 am

Apart from Boeotia peing in Central Greece, North of the Gulf of Corinth and therefore likely to be similar to whatever was being worn in the rest of Greece; Do you have any more details - a date you are specifically interested in?
Maredudd

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Sun May 22, 2005 11:40 am

I really don't know...

I saw a helmet...Depeeka makes it, and I liked it.. It was different...
http://www.deepeeka.com/store/catalog/n ... helmet.jpg

and Ive been lookign at a nuber of the different linnen and leather armor...

http://www.armordillo.co.uk/ARMOUR&COST ... uirass.jpg

http://www.armordillo.co.uk/ARMOUR&COST ... uirass.jpg

was wondering what the time periods were for that kind of helmet, and armor.... if they worked together...

And any onther social aspects of the Boetians. But you say that they are probably a lot like the greeks.

Wil · Post by **Wil** » Sun May 22, 2005 12:48 pm

Ancient Greek helmets are named after regions of Greece, though it doesn't suggest any sort of preference for their use in one area. The Boeotian helmet was a cavalry helmet used all over Greece and Macedionia (and probably by Persian cavalry, or a very similar style). There are two today, one in the British Museum and one in Tripolis.

Any cultural differences between the Boeotians and their neighbours would have been minute IMO.

~Wil

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Mon May 23, 2005 11:50 am

so would the Boetian style calvery helmet go with the linen or leather style kit?

Wil · Post by **Wil** » Mon May 23, 2005 12:41 pm

I don't really know- there's a portrayal of what looks like a 4th century Macedonian (perhaps Persian?) cavalryman wearing one of these helmets with no other armour on the 'Alexander Sarcophagus'.

http://www.macedonian-heritage.gr/Helle ... _A15a.html

If you chose to recreate this particular source, you could end your armour quest with the helmet and focus on putting together the proper clothing etc. What are you doing this for, may I ask?

~Wil

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Mon May 23, 2005 12:52 pm

I was just interested.

I'm looking for some lighter stuff for SCA combat. I know its pretty early for the SCA, but Ive seen a lot of other Greek guys in pictures. But if I was going to do it, I wanted to go in a different direction than the Corinthian Helmet, Metal Musculata, and other stereotypical Greek Trojan/Spartan period

That and I just really liek the helmet...dont really no why...I just do

Matthew Amt · Post by **Matthew Amt** » Tue May 24, 2005 8:50 am

Khaire!

The linen version is definitely more accurate--I'm not sure leather was used for that sort of armor, and the "plated" version you show just doesn't grab me (accuracy-wise). It's called a linothorax or linen cuirass, and was very popular. Here's my page on it:

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/linothor.html

Deepeeka's "Alexander the Great cuirass" looks pretty good, but their "Greek Scale Armor" version does not. Don't know if they are just a couple layers of canvas, or what.

I don't do SCA myself, but from what I've heard, folks have used linothorax-style armor very succesfully. One advantage of the Hellenistic period is that you can add greaves and even things like segmented armguards, and still be accurate.

And I think that getting into a new look or a new period simply because you like the helmet is terrific! Especially when it's an ANCIENT period, eh?

Best of luck,

Matthew

ushumgal · Post by **ushumgal** » Tue May 24, 2005 11:19 am

There are actually artistic representations of linothoraxes with such large, apparently metal, square or rectangular plates overlapping like scales. They usually go in a belt around the midsection, or are just on the right side, and smaller scales are used elsewhere. The huge round-headed rivets (as well as the leather) are right out, though. The representations do not show how they were fastened, but presumably it was like any other kind of scale armor - laced, stapeled, or riveted at the *top* of the scale, so the scale above it covers that part. So, it's not *too* bad, but they really need to lose the rivets, and use linen. The pteruges seem pretty long on both as well - Classical era pteruges were quite short - in many depictions of men wearing them, you can see their...ahem...naughty bits... By the Roman period (the first or second centuries AD), they seem to have reached that length, but by then, the linothorax was on its way out.

khaire, o philoi!
Jamie
LU2.DUB.SAR

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Tue May 24, 2005 11:30 am

Id probably keep them pretty long though... I dont think people would wand to see my naughty bits

ushumgal · Post by **ushumgal** » Tue May 24, 2005 11:35 am

I don't know...you could get a cup that looks anthropomorphically correct... I don't think there's anything in SCA regs against that...

But seriously, the pteruges (I hear) make pretty good upper leg protection, depending on what you make them from. They're just not so authentic, unless you're going for mor Roman period. But, if you look at the Near East in that same period, you see a lot of Hellenistic styles still being used (such as at Palmyra).

Jamie
LU2.DUB.SAR

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Tue May 24, 2005 11:44 am

I really like the looks of the first one, and I wonder if it would offer a little more protection then just the linen...or

If I covered an armor grade leater with a few layers of the linen if it would offer a little more protection, and keep it from softening up when it gets hot...thats somthing that Matthew Amt said happened when he wore his.

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Tue May 24, 2005 2:03 pm

would the Boeatian Helmet work with something like this?

http://www.globaleffects.com/C_pages/Re ... 602_hi.jpg

ushumgal · Post by **ushumgal** » Tue May 24, 2005 2:37 pm

Not really - that looks to be a funky rendition of a Roman musculata cuirass. For that, it's not too bad (though the muscles seem exaggerated), but the scale on the shoulders has no historical parallels that I am aware of.

For SCA combat, I think you are on the right track covering heavy leather with linen. You could even cover aluminum or steel or even (*gasp*!) plastic with linen, to give you more protection. It is not authentic, of course - when the Greeks reinforced a linothorax, they seem to have just added scales to the outside, and often only exposed areas (like the right side). However, SCA combat is not like ancient Greek combat, so some allowances must be made.

The greeks did also use musculata-style breastplates, but again, with shorter pteruges, if any at all. Check some references for the era you're interested in for the style used then, because it did change over time (from the Archaic 'bell-cuirass' to the hellenistic breastplate that was clearly the basis of the Roman musculata).

Still, I think the linothorax is more distinctive, allows more expression through decoration, and perhaps most importantly, is much easier to make! That, of course, was one reason that it was much more common in antiquity - cheaper materials + cheaper labor = cheaper armor.

Jamie
LU2.DUB.SAR