K.W. Novice tourney question...

[sarnac]

ok...

here is an interesting question....

last year the Known World Novice Tourney seemed to be a success.

the rules as posted did not allow anyone who had been fighting for more than two years to the day.....

also I excluded Squires as they have thier own tourney run by our own legendary Duke Logan.

now...however there are people who participated last year who still are within the time frame to be eligible to compete in the K.W. Novice tourney that have been made squires..... and wish to compete again this year.

So..........

should I append the rules and allow Squires who meet the "Less than Two years" rule...???

Or do I exclude them as I didi last year and make them go fight with their peers in the Squires tourney...even though their chances of success are minimal?

I am not saying that the consensus here will make me change th rule....I would just like to hear arguements why I should or should not change it.

Thanks

[kenrickb]

It all centers around your definition of novice. So the base definition is somebody who hasn't been fighting for two years. You could argue that being under the direct tutelage of a knight gives somebody a leg up so that they (i.e. squires) aren't really novices even though they haven't been fighting the whole two years. If you believe that to be true then I'd say keep the rules as is. If you don't believe that to be true, and the point of the tourney is to highlight the skills of new fighters, then it doesn't matter that they're squires or that there is another tourney just for squires.

Kenric

[davidt]

Well i planned to fight in the novice tourney since I've only been fighting a year, but I've recently been squired, so I guess I would be excluded. So obviously I'd like squires to be allowed.

[WilliamThomas]

I will throw my 2 cents into the hat since we are having an open forum here. If he is a squire and has direct tutelage from a knight does that give him a leg up? Hmmm well to be honest with you, here in Atlantia there are a lot of opportunities to have direct teachings from a knight. My knight is a couple of hours away from me and I spend more of my time working on my own then I am able to with him. There is also a knight closer to my house that I talk to about a lot of the day-to-day fighting questions or training I have. I became a squire more to learn what it is to be a knight than how to fight. I also believe that whether you have a knight or not two years is still just two years. The newness factor is still there and there is not a lot you can do about it.

That is of course just how I see things, but I will accept that my opinion may be slightly bias. Because I am a squire and by Pennsic I will have only been fighting for about 1 year and 2 months. In any case I think this tourney is a great idea and whether I am allowed to fight in it or not I would love to help out with it however I can.

William Thomas
Squire to Sir Bryce de Byram

[paulb]

I would suggest that you let squires with less than two years of experience fight.

I would expect that your intention was to give people who have less than two years of experience a chance to fight against their peers. The squires tourney includes many who are nearing knighthood, and as you say, squires with less than two years of experience will likely have a minimal chance of success.

I would think that you would wish to include the newer people who have put some effort into their training as well as those who are just new to fighting.

Paulb

[Gwydion Caithnes]

should I append the rules and allow Squires who meet the "Less than Two years" rule...???

Or do I exclude them as I didi last year and make them go fight with their peers in the Squires tourney...even though their chances of success are minimal?

Interesting question. I don't meet the current criteria to fight in the novice tourney. I started fighting in 1988 (or thereabouts), but was not very active in the SCA, and only recently took it back up again.

My skill level is clearly that of an "experienced novice," (if you can sift through the apparent contradiction) even though I've been squired since my first year in the SCA (1987). I just wasn't active enough to acquire a higher level of skill. That's changing, now that I'm back in, but I'm still learning (or, in some cases, "re-learning") some of the basics.

All that being said, I intend to fight in the Squires' Tourney, and would do so even if I were elligible to fight in the novice (assuming I had to make a choice between the two).

I'm gonna get pounded, but my philosophy is that you only improve and learn by regularly fighting people who are better than you, and have something to teach you. I'm more likely to find that against my brother squires than I am among the novices. Mind you, I've learned a few things from novices, too, but the overall skill level among my fellow red-belts is likely to be higher.

Everyone wants to win, and tries to win, but if you only enter the tournaments where you have a better-than-average chance of winning, what's the point?

My vote (FWIW): Keep the criteria the same.

[Gwydion Caithnes]

It all centers around your definition of novice. So the base definition is somebody who hasn't been fighting for two years. You could argue that being under the direct tutelage of a knight gives somebody a leg up so that they (i.e. squires) aren't really novices even though they haven't been fighting the whole two years. If you believe that to be true then I'd say keep the rules as is. If you don't believe that to be true, and the point of the tourney is to highlight the skills of new fighters, then it doesn't matter that they're squires or that there is another tourney just for squires.

Hmmm..I re-read this, and had to think about it for a minute. It's true that a new fighter is a new fighter, regardless of the color of his belt. But aren't there two different purposes to the novice vs. the squires tourney?

Isn't part of the intent of the squires tourney to provide a forum for squires to showcase their martial talents to members of the chivalry who might be considering them for elevation? The novice tourney doesn't really have that element - isn't its purpose simply to provide a venue for people with similar skill levels a chance to compete amongst themselves? Or am I misinterpreting the intent behind each tourney?

Granted, the two aren't mutually-exclusive, and you can certainly have a "novice squire." But see my earlier post - I'm just not sure that fighting in the novice tourney helps the novice squire along his path as much as the squires tourney (where he will find a higher level of competition) does.

Having said all that, I do agree with the post that said that squiredom is more about learning how to be a knight than it is learning how to fight. I am much farther along on the first path than I am on the second.

[WilliamThomas]

Isn't part of the intent of the squires tourney to provide a forum for squires to showcase their martial talents to members of the chivalry who might be considering them for elevation? The novice tourney doesn't really have that element - isn't its purpose simply to provide a venue for people with similar skill levels a chance to compete amongst themselves?

I believe the tourney is more about allowing you to fight with your peers of similar experience level. It is hard for a new fighter to kinda gauge how they are doing when most people they fight are 8+ years. I try and practice at least 4 times a week and then go and get blown out of most tourneys can be discouraging. I believe… or at least for me last year when I fought in it, it gave us a place to shine a bit.

Again just my 2 cents

William

[MalcolmdeMoffat]

you could always define a novice as "less than two years form their first authorization" for me that would mean I'm a novice unitl February 2006.

[sarnac]

the current criteria IS two years or less to the day from their PRIMARY Auth.

[Dalewyn]

I have no stake in this, I can't fight either way (and I'm not going to Pennsic this year either, sniff). But let them go for it, they are still new.

On a slightly off topic note, I have a story to relate about last year's tourney (I was there, cheering on a fellow Ironwolf member).

One novice fighter known as "Big Damn John" (he's 6'8" tall) registered for the tourney last year wearing his helm.
The lady taking his name didn't seem to hear him right. "What is you name?", she asked him.
He answered through his helm, "Big Damn John, M'Lady".
"I beg your pardon?" she replied.
"Big Damn John, M'Lady" was again the reply...
"OOkay..."she said, in disbelief.
For his first fight, the marshall stuttered as he called him into the list...
"Would Big ....Um ...D#ng John please enter the list..."
John tried to correct him, but it seems he couldn't be understood through his helm.
When he stepped into the list, the marshall exclaimed "Oh, you're one of OSRIC's boys!", as if that explained everything...

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

I would say to stick with your original rules. Squires do have their own showcase for a tourney.

Last year, though I would have fallen into the category of Novice, by this definition, I had been a squire for most of that time. I would have fought in the squires tourney.

As Gwydion stated - better to learn fighting in a pool of people better than you than where you are within the better half.

[Asbjorn Johansen]

As a non squire, I would have been disappointed if I thought I was losing the opportunity to measure my skills against fighters with the equivalent experience. In my experience as an unsquired fighter, at least in the East and northern Atlanitia and Aethelmarc, being squired has very little effect on your access to quality training, particularly at the low to mid range.

[Morgan]

I've always disliked doing something to a squire simply for the sake of their being a squire. IE, if they're worth more points than a non-squire in some kind of tourney, or excluding them from a newbie tourney if they otherwise qualify, for example.

There are PLENTY of squires who are VERY newbie. They should be allowed to fight with thier peer group, IMHO.

[Gwydion Caithnes]

In my experience as an unsquired fighter, at least in the East and northern Atlanitia and Aethelmarc, being squired has very little effect on your access to quality training, particularly at the low to mid range.

I'm not 100% certain I understand what you mean by "low to mid range," but assuming you're saying that you can get a quality level of training whether you're squired or not, I agree.

This is getting a little off-topic, but here in the Cleftlands you can't swing a dead cat without hitting either a red-belt or a white one, and everyone is very generous about sharing their skills with anyone willing to partake. There's none of the "you're not my squire, so I'm not going to teach you" stuff. Non-belts have the same access to training as the red belts, and I've learned plenty just by "kibbitzing" on the side while a knight is instructing someone.

A knight will occasionally ask permission of another knight before offering suggestions to his squire, but that's a matter of courtesy - I've never seen it declined.

[Asbjorn Johansen]

The main difference at the upper end I have observed is ease and amount of access to the top tier fighters or trainers. These are the guys who at Pennsic have the line of knights plus assorted unbelts wanting to fight/learn from them. They only have so much time/energy. If you are a squire with an active mentor i.e. knight, they often have a better chance to pre arrange time for them, particularly when they are fresh. It’s the advantage of having two people actively looking for the best chances to train, particularly the knight has a better odds then the undbelt of knowing the top tier guy or having a connection. Not to say you can’t get access to the best fights if you are not a squire or a knight, far from it, but you are going to have to invest more time, or if you are a squire who does not have an active mentor you will probably be in the same boat. Given that everyone’s time is by definition limited, the person without the mentor is slightly disadvantaged in this respect.