'Bishops' Mantle construction help.

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Sat May 28, 2005 6:34 pm

As a side project to the many i have going at the moment i have decided to take on a 'bishops' mantle. Namely, the one from the Dresden historisches museum. The diea is to get as close ot the original shape and hang as possible using butted instead of rivetted links. My main problem is joining the trapezoids that make up the neck portion of the garment. How was this done with such small links? i have tried with larger rings and always get bunching somewhere but this seems so smooth.
My seocnd question is the lining. What kind of lining did garments such as this have? linen, leather? how was this attached? was it sewn on or integrated into the garment via some other method.

Images here:
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/hayman/New%20Folder%20(3)/For%20Erik8.jpg
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/hayman/New%20Folder%20(3)/For%20Erik9.jpg

Tetsu · Post by **Tetsu** » Sat May 28, 2005 11:57 pm

One pair of needle-nose pliers, one pair of linesman's pliers, good lighting and a lot of patience.

If you're doing something tight like that, there needs to be a tiny, tiny amount of "give" to join up the seams. 16 ga. 3/16" (5 mm, about) would be a close enough approximation for butted mail.

I suspect original examples look a lot tighter because of the flattened area the rivet went through.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Sun May 29, 2005 2:01 am

I looked at the mantle in St Louis pretty closely.

The area around the neck was probably made with slightly thicker wire, I wasn't certain if the ID was tighter too. All the riveted areas were oriented the same way, and due to the thicker wire, etc, it made it extremely unlikely for the individual rings to move around.

Once you got past the neck/inner shoulders, it went to a lighter wire.

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Sun May 29, 2005 4:15 pm

I am constricted to 5mm as its the smallest mandrel i can get at the moment. Form looking at an existing pizaine, i realised these are about he right size. My main concern is the seam where the trapezoids join. Am i right in that this is often called a 45 degree seam? I've read about this seam and practiced it but to no avail. Can anyone of the better mail makers simplify it for me please?

Tetsu · Post by **Tetsu** » Sun May 29, 2005 8:10 pm

Something like that.

The links connecting on piece to the next were done with copper.

Jason Grimes · Post by **Jason Grimes** » Sun May 29, 2005 8:25 pm

Tetsu - that is a great way to show how to do it!!

I like it!

Thomas - The biggest difficulty with seams is making sure that all of the rows as laying the same direction on both pieces. I just shove both of them together to see how well they will fit together. Once you see them together, it will be come evident where you need to put the connecting links. You may need to add or remove a row to get them to join correctly. As I make the sections I test fit them to the other pieces to make sure I'm getting the rows lined up right.

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Mon May 30, 2005 3:06 am

Wow, so much clearer than all these 3d one si've seen. Thanks for that. I shall get cutting my rings when i get my slitting saw. Should speed things up somewhat. I'll try and get some pics with my mini (crappy) digicam.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Tue May 31, 2005 4:39 am

It helps to remember that all that happens when you join mailpatches with a 45-degree join is that the linkrows take a bend at the join and continue along -- nothing stops, nothing gaps, nothing lumps up: each linkrow just continues straight across the piece, arrives at the seam, and angles off in a new direction.

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Tue May 31, 2005 11:13 am

I noticed that when i saw the image but i couldn't figure out how to get it like that. Thanks for your help everyone. I'm currently cutting rings :-(

Jean Richard Malcolmson · Tue May 31, 2005 6:50 pm

The triangles look very square but if you add a row or two of 4 into ones at the top and bottom of the triangle, it rounds off very nicely.

However, you will have a 5 into 1 at the top of the seam and a 3 into 1 at the bottom of the seam.

Regards,
Richard
Ansteorra

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Tue May 31, 2005 6:58 pm

Well, just cut some of my 5mm ID 2mm wire links and bollocks. They simply are too tiht a weave to allow expansion or 45 degreee seams :-(

. Looks like i'll have to go 6mm. good job i only cut 600 :roll:

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 6:47 am

The undersized ones will do nicely for any expansion work in a piece made of 6mm -- their smaller ID compensates for their lower hang between the two links in either lower corner of the expansion. Helps the expansion disappear.

Tight ARs call for the use of "expansion holes" -- deliberate flaws in the weave to yield the expansion effect. Instead of the expansion idler link, just add on the links in the linkrow below that would have linked with that idler link and go on around the linkrow and down the link column -- these links will only be through three others. Sort of a "Let's not and say we did."

I guess this works best in small link sizes. If you need to keep things fully stabilized as you make this, you can use a bit of fine wire or a twist tie to make a temporary link you can remove once you've got the linkrow below all this in place.

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 7:12 am

CAn i be totally honest with you. That went totally over my head :sad:

. When it comes to people describing things in mail, i need it clear and with drawings if neccessary :lol: