11th/12th c. female garb

[Brennan mac Fearghus]

My wife is trying to reproduce this outfit.


She is having a hard time determining what the "girdle" piece is. Is is fabric? Is it some sort of corset? We're so confuzzled. Can anyone help?

Other similar images can be found here, here, and here (on the left).

Again, I'd appreciate any help you guys can give us.

Brennan

[Mal Voisin]

Whoa! Braun & Schneider really draw those gals chuncky! I bet they got tremendous thunder-thighs!

The main problem in decerning your first illustration lies in the style it is drawn: All that cross hatching makes figuring out forms very hard. You need a photo of the original stone sculpture.

Forget Braun & Schneider: complete crap.

[Karen Larsdatter]

You might find it helpful to look at the instructions for bliauts with pleated-on skirts at http://bliautlady.50megs.com/pattwomn.htm and http://www.chateau-michel.org/belle_bliaut.htm, or ask around on the 12th Century Clothing mailing list.

There's some additional useful links at http://moas.atlantia.sca.org/wsnlinks/index.php?action=displaycat&catid=283.

[Reyne]

Greetings! I have made several Bliauts, and they are not for beginner's! There is actually a company (Wingeo) that has 2 different patterns for this outfit. They can both be found at
http://patternsoftime.com
Catalog page 41.

Enjoy!

Reyne

[Milesent]

Woah... there are some things you don't discuss... politics, religeon and the construction of Bliauts

heh. Been witness to many a construction theory fued on this one! Take anything with a grain of salt; no extant garments remain!

Personally; I doubt any corsetry is involved as corsets were not worn in the preceding or following periods and also corsets tend to include ridged elements that might have survived and we've no (that I know of) extant garments of this type.

Also the artwork of the time is highly stylized; why can't they all be into meticulous realism like the Neatherlandish rennaisance painters? *sigh*

[edit]
A quick google search for images of statues lead me to this site:
http://www.geocities.com/douziemesiecle/visual.html
which contains some good photos, and evidences the problem with how the artists of the time chose to represent drapery.
[/edit]

[Charlotte J]

Woah... there are some things you don't discuss... politics, religeon and the construction of Bliauts

Hahaha! So true!

The best version I've seen of this implemented was acually quite simple, in the waist area. It consisted of your basic rectangular tunic pattern, made fitted through the waist (yes, you can still put it on) but made extra long through the waist. Instead of about 10 inches between the sleeve gusset and the hip, she did 2 or 2.5 feet. Then when she put it on, she arranged the wrinkles to look even. It didn't take a lot of effort.

It's very simple, and it's very close to construction techniques that people use for other garments of the period. That's two plusses in my book!

[Tailoress]

Way back in the mists of time I made one of these using the method Char describes (extra-long torso with side lacing to ruck it up) and it really did look great. I used a silk broadcloth, which helps give the fluid effect.

There have been three articles in Tournaments Illuminated (the SCA publication) through the years which cover three ways to attempt the visual effect of these famous statues. I used to have them all in photocopy form, but no more. Sorry; I can't tell you what issues they came from. More recently, Robin Netherton wrote an article formulating a method for creating this general type of pendant-sleeved gown (which TI reprinted from some previous publication) and which makes a plausible case for simple geometric construction, sans special effects across the torso. Her article concentrates more on the sleeves than the torso issues, and I believe (IIRC) she subscribes more to the "Chartres statues are stylized, not realistic" theory of "bliaut" construction. Anyway, you can find that article in TI issue #141, which can be ordered here: http://www.sca.org/ti/issue.html

Also, if you want to see a bona fide "Chartres bliaut statue" in real life, one is on display (probably not from Chartres, but clearly by the same artist or same school and dated to that time, etc.) at the Glencairn Museum, which is in Bucks County PA, just over the NJ border (you're in NJ, right?)..

http://www.glencairnmuseum.org/

-Good luck and have fun,

Tasha

[Reyne]

Well, having used both patterns, and done some serious personal research on the topic, I have found several things. First, the hip girdle is not a corset, and not boned. it's usually made of a heavy fabric, like velvet, and quilted. Then eyelets are sewn into the edges (like the front of a cotehardie), and laced up the back.
This is worn OVER two layers of dress, one an obvious undergown with fitted sleeves, and the other the overgown, of fine linen or silk. SOme sources say the overgown is crinkled and pleasted, but I've also seen an example fo this gown worn without the girdle, pin-tucked instead of pleated, and it was absolutely gorgeous.
You wear the belt in a double-girded fashion.

I ahve to admit, a lot of the books I have access to are of the 'Victorian Era', which I know Robin Netherton personally dislikes.

Reyne

[Milesent]

I'm definitely in the 'wrinkles are stylized' camp, partly due to the exageration on some of the statues (the last one in the link I gave above has the wrinkles going in circles around the breasts, for example, just try getting fabric to do that!) Plus the men's garments show similar stylized pleating. A friend of mine is of the opinion that a good close-fitting tunic-cut silk linen dress will develop wrinkles from wear that follow the stylized pattern on the statues. She looked good in the outfit anyway.

I'll agree we're seeing at least a two-layer outfit here, wtih an under-dress with a close sleeve and an over-dress with an hanging sleeve. Though, I'm wondering where you found evidence for the girdle lacing up the back? If there's an image showing the /back/ of one of these suckers out there, I want it!

Respectfully,
-Milesent-

[Charlotte J]

I ahve to admit, a lot of the books I have access to are of the 'Victorian Era', which I know Robin Netherton personally dislikes.

Reyne

It's not just Robin... Nor did we all get the idea from her...

Tasha,

Interestingly enough, the person who did the dress with the long torso didn't even bother with lacing. The wrinkles mostly fell into place when she put it on, with a little arranging just to be particular. It worked really nicely.

She's rather slender, and I think that would help the wrinkles not bunch up in odd places.

[Reyne]

Again, my limited source for that back is a Herbert Norris book, plus, the Wingeo patterns. The woman who makes the Wingeo patterns swears she's done tons of research on the Bliaut, but my guess is she's using the same books that I"m using.

[ Though, I'm wondering where you found evidence for the girdle lacing up the back? If there's an image showing the /back/ of one of these suckers out there, I want it!

Respectfully,
-Milesent-[/quote]

I've also heard of some peole suggesting that the skirt was separate from the bodice, and that this is the first example oof a 2-piece dress. Ow, I'm a little skepticle about this idea, since the next example of a separate skirt and bodice is several hundred years away.

Alternately, the fitted dress design of the bliaut could be a pre-curser to the cotehardie. Just a thought.

I apologize if I"m stepping on toes or re-hashing old arguments. I've only been costuming for about 5 years now, and am still trying to decipher fact from fiction!

YIS,

Reyne

[Charlotte J]

Again, my limited source for that back is a Herbert Norris book, plus, the Wingeo patterns. The woman who makes the Wingeo patterns swears she's done tons of research on the Bliaut, but my guess is she's using the same books that I"m using.

I've also heard of some peole suggesting that the skirt was separate from the bodice, and that this is the first example oof a 2-piece dress. Ow, I'm a little skepticle about this idea, since the next example of a separate skirt and bodice is several hundred years away.

Alternately, the fitted dress design of the bliaut could be a pre-curser to the cotehardie. Just a thought.

I apologize if I"m stepping on toes or re-hashing old arguments. I've only been costuming for about 5 years now, and am still trying to decipher fact from fiction!

YIS,

Reyne

First order of business - toss Norris out the window! Seriously, while there's some good info in there (I've heard), you really have to already know what's going on to separate the good from the bad. Norris takes a lot from the Victorian images, which as you know, is inherently problematic.

Don't worry about rehashing old arguments. We're all here to learn, after all.

As far as trusting somebody else's research, that's a tough one to call. They can swear up and down they've done it, and they're telling the truth, but if it's all based on Norris and Victorian paintings, it doesn't do you much good. When following somebody else's research, it's always a good idea to track their sources. Are they actually using period art? Period references?

Now, the idea that the bliaut morphed into the fitted cotte... It's a good thought, one that I used to toss around in my brain too, but the timing just doesn't work on it. As you said about the waist seams, there's a time gap. The "bliaut" is 11th or 12th century ( I can't remember exactly when!) and the fitted cotte didn't come around until the mid 14th century. The fashion of the 13th and early 14th century was much more voluminous, and would discount the idea of the transformation from the bliaut to the cotte.

[Karen Larsdatter]

It's always valuable to analyze your research sources.

[Reyne]

OK then, if the books I own aren't good sources of info for accurate costuming, what are some good sources, short of a trip to a museum in Europe?
Not that I'd mind going, but the finances just aren't there, y'know?

Reyne

[Tailoress]

Reyne,

I posted a link for a museum right here in the US, in southeastern PA, which has one of these statues. That's a start, right?

In the case of many historical clothing styles, the only way to get "the big picture" is to do piecemeal detective work. This means checking out many many books/sources and comparing them. Rarely does one book, especially art books, have the lion's share of data.

Sculptures of the West Portals of Chartres Cathedral by Stoddard is one of the most popular and cheap books showing decent photos of the 'bliaut gals'.

I've seen good things come out of the Yahoo Group "12thcenturygarb", so here's a link to their Links section:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12thcenturygarb/links

By exploring, you'll probably come across a bunch of recommended texts/art books.

Good luck,

Tasha