Stakes?

Minotaur · Post by **Minotaur** » Mon Jul 04, 2005 10:37 pm

I keep leaving small dings and scratches in stakes. So would case hardening them work or should I just remake them out of tool steel? Also dont tell me to be less clumsy because that just isnt going to happen.

RalphS · Post by **RalphS** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:13 am

Either would work, but requires the right equipment and know-how.

You could also try to harden the stakes you have in super-quench, ( http://www.lametalsmiths.org/news/robb_gunter.htm ) which should make them quite a bit harder.

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:12 am

Note that just polishing case hardened stakes will wear through the case pretty fast, it's more for abrasion resistance than impact resistance.

Thomas

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:03 pm

I leave small scratches and dings in my stakes too.
If used on the inside of the helm, I say no big deal.

Now my planishing hammers.... That's another story. I re-polish them when ever they need it.

Hal

Ps: Case hardining is only a few thousands thick, I don't think it would hold up very well.

RalphS · Post by **RalphS** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:25 pm

Case hardening can be up to a few mm deep, if you send the stuff off to a professional place. Just covering it in case-n-ite or similar stuff, and hitting it with a torch for a few minutes will give you a very thin case.

As I said, right equipment and know-how.

With just a homebrew casehardening set-up I managed to get full penetration of a 1 mm mild steel test piece, in only half an hour to an hour soak time. It takes quite a bit of polishing to get rid of 0.5 mm hardened steel.

Anyway, try the superquench as a first attempt. I was amazed how much mild steel can toughen up!

MigueldZ · Post by **MigueldZ** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:31 pm

I read on anvilfire that icewater will have the same effect as superquench. Also, what kind of rc hardness can one expect from either of these methods?

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Tue Jul 05, 2005 11:35 pm

I think it would bring the surface up to Rc 62 or there abouts.

matthijs · Post by **matthijs** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 6:14 am

Would work hardening the surface work? Hammering the surface with a slightly domed hammer or on a more industrial scale bombarding it with a sea of small ball bearings. The latter is sometimes done with sheet alu for airplaines to make it more fatigue resistant.

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:37 am

Halberds you are not going to get RC62 with mild steel even with a mercury quench!

Thomas

MigueldZ · Post by **MigueldZ** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:48 am

Ok Thomas, you've narrowed it down, now let's get to specifics

. How hard can you get mild with a super quench or ice water quench? I didn't want to ask it on anvilfire for fear of starting the same argument that came up when the superquench vs. icewater issue came up before.

RalphS · Post by **RalphS** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 1:10 pm

Up to HRC 48 according to the linked article. Depends on the steel type of course.

Casehardened should put you somewhere around 60, perhaps 62 in the hardest parts.

Tool steel I'd not go over 55 if you're going to beat on it, but that also depends on the alloy, and impact resistance of the steel.

Workhardened depends very much on the alloy, no idea which hardness to expect for generic stake steel.

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:20 pm

Define "mild Steel"; Most of what you get today is A36 not "mild steel"---even if they call it that.

A36 can have enough carbon to be a medium carbon steel; but you never know how much you are getting from piece to piece. It's spec'd on yield strength, 36KPSI, not alloy content

1018 won't harden much

1005 probably have trouble seeing any difference at all

If I was building stakes I would probably look for big truck axles and try to get 4140 or 4340
and heat treat to tough. (Actually I find something whose shape I like and use it and not worry about the alloy save for it's weldability...; but If I was going to sell one I'd have to do it "right"...)

Thomas

MigueldZ · Post by **MigueldZ** » Wed Jul 06, 2005 2:26 pm

That's pretty much what I do. And when I can't find the shape I want, I just make it out of "mild". If I ever go pro, I'll go down and purchase a bunch of leaf spring and truck axle bits for stock and remake all of my stakes but as a hobbyist, I just try to be careful and grind out the bigger dings as needed. Most stakes work on the inside of the piece so it's not too big a deal, though on thinner pieces or deeper dings, this can be an issue.
Basically I'm lazy, hitting a big piece of tool steel (4130 0r 4140 especially), even at cherry red, is something I don't wanna do unless someone is giving me money........and beer............and a hug

Mek1485 · Post by **Mek1485** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 1:10 am

hey while we're on the subjsect. What sizes and shapes of stake would i need to set up a smal armouring workshop! I will be concentrating mostly on the 1350-1450 period as this is what i re-enact.

so, sizes, shapes hights whatever could help me out. Thanks in advance.

Matthias

PS: sorry mate no real intent to hijack the thread :twisted:

but this is need to know, and well u put them in the frame of mind to answer!

Minotaur · Post by **Minotaur** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 3:29 am

I am going to try the super quench. I just happen to have some jet dry that I use to make "wet water" for plaster casting. Also if the water was cold I dont think it would hurt. The only down side is that it might not work, I would only be out some salt soap and jetdry. Also Ralph what kind of case hardening setup do you use? One mm pen. would do the trick if the superquench doesnt work.

Mat for basic stakes shapes there is the round, domed, mushroom, chisle, and saddle. There is also the creasing stake thats kind of like a tapered square. Height and size depend on what your doing/making.

MigueldZ · Post by **MigueldZ** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:08 am

Matthew, I'm not presenting this as the end all be all of stake collections, the stuff I have is pretty basic but it would get you started at least.

http://community.webshots.com/user/hispaniola100

RalphS · Post by **RalphS** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:49 am

Minotaur wrote:Ralph what kind of case hardening setup do you use? One mm pen. would do the trick if the superquench doesnt work.

I've only done some simple experiments, just to see if it works:
* Welded a small box, with tight fitting lid
* Filled it with crushed coke
* Tucked a few pieces of mild steel sheet in it
* Top up with coke, and close
* Simmer at 850-900 C for some time in my homemade heat treating oven (knife-sized)
* When done, heat pieces to cherry red / non-magnetic, and quench in water
* Put the testpiece in a vice and gently force it over with a hammer

The properly hardened pieces cracked, surface-hardened pieces would only get some surface cracks. A reference test with the starting material only made it bend.

On the attached picture you can see that part of the piece didn't carburise properly, and bent instead of cracked. This is probably the side with the lid, and thus a less carburising atmosphere. Or perhaps the temperature was lower and carbon diffusion was too slow.

In any case, it shows that it is possible to get a piece of 0.75 mm to harden all the way through. With moderately simple equipment, and some knowledge of metallurgy, this is fully doable in your workshop.

RalphS · Post by **RalphS** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:03 pm

Found the link with my experiments:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... hp?t=26709

Mek1485 · Post by **Mek1485** » Thu Jul 07, 2005 5:03 pm

thank you very much for the link and the advise. Oh and that experiment is really cool!

Regards,
Matthias