Effigy Shoulder Question

Niall · Post by **Niall** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 8:12 am

I have been looking at the effigies (english) from 1390 to 1415 or so and a common shoulder defense is, or appears to be, a shoulder cop and 3 lames. However the top of the cop is often covered by mail. So can anyone point me in the direction of what the top part of the shoulder defense looks like or is constructed? I cannot seem to find anything that looks like that from that time period in the books and images I have.

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:37 am

In that timeframe, there really would not be much other than maille. Often two layers, one from the shirt and the other from the aventail or camail. Near the end of that timeframe, there may have been an additional plate on top of the shoulder beyond the shoulder point "cop", but the protection in that area needs to maintain a certain flexibility given the rotation and mobility of the should area.

Of course, I am not an expert and could be wrong....

Henry of Bexley · Post by **Henry of Bexley** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:26 pm

Are you sure you aren't thinking 1290-1315, Wulfe? Almost all the effigies from the 1390-1415 time period on gothiceye seem to show spaulders/ early pauldrons.

As far as the shape of the cop, check out the videos on armouring section at Talbot's Fine Accessories (link at the links section, I'm too lazy to go get it). The picture of that spaulder looks fairly accurate.

Kenwrec Wulfe · Post by **Kenwrec Wulfe** » Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:32 pm

Yes. He is refering to the area on the top of the should between the point on the shoulder and the base of the neck (unless I misunderstand.) That area requires flexibility for proper movement and cannot have a plate that is of any significant size. Put a plate on your shoulder that goes from the shoulder point to the base of your next and raise you hand. You will jab your neck with the plate.

Henry of Bexley · Post by **Henry of Bexley** » Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:58 pm

I was just figuring he meant the maille was covering most of the cop and all you can actually see with certainly is the lames... that's how it seems to be on most of 'em. Perhaps I misunderstood, though.

Niall · Post by **Niall** » Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:20 am

Thanks guys.

I was referring to the shape of the cop over the point of the shoulder and anything else that is hidden by mail or surcoat. I mean there could be other lames or not, we can't see in the effigies.

I did find the article on Arador about 14th century spaulders. He said there are no extent examples for the 14th century. I was hoping maybe someone had seen something from the very early 15th century (1401-1415) that might give a clue as to cop shape/design.