Full mail in the sca

jamesn_13 · Post by **jamesn_13** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 4:33 pm

I have a friend from school who's in the sca, i'm not though, and i've looked at some of the pictures he's got nad pictures on the web. mt question is: why isn't aren't there many people in full mail? like crusader stile.

PS.in the near future i plan on goinging the sca and i want my kit to be full mail.

PaulyP · Post by **PaulyP** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 4:43 pm

He has nad pictures on the web? And you are looking at them?

Khann · Post by **Khann** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 5:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PaulyP:
He has nad pictures on the web? And you are looking at them?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey snob give him a break!

Khann

Stoffel · Post by **Stoffel** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 5:07 pm

Mostly because of the bludgening force of the swords. Maille protects against cuts, but not against mace like weapons, which is basically what the rattan swords are. That, and most people(not here on the archive) think that maille is too heavy, and you cant win in it. Likewise, the same reason there arent many people that wear lots of plate. But its true, at least around here(texas) that you cant win in full plate or maille, becuase everyone fights in leather or aluminum, or almost nothing at all. If you both hit each other on the arm, and one of you is wearing no arm protection, while the other is wearing fluted gothic plate over maille, over a padded gambison, you are both equally wounded, because of the stupid armour as worn standards.

Rainald · Post by **Rainald** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 5:49 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Stoffel:
... If you both hit each other on the arm, and one of you is wearing no arm protection, while the other is wearing fluted gothic plate over maille, over a padded gambison, you are both equally wounded, because of the stupid armour as worn standards.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except your arm is going to be fine and padboy is going to be sporting a nice big bruise tommorow.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 6:19 pm

"why isn't aren't there many people in full mail?"

The short answer used to be this:

For the protection maille gives, maille is too heavy for SCA combat.

I say "used to be" because with the emergance of riveted maille the weights of maille garments are coming down to levels where people don't mind wearing it, even though it still doesn't provide much protection against mass weapons like rattan.

Until about 5 years ago, butted maille was all that was available to the medieval combatant. A common "combat weight" of butted maille is a 3/8" ID made of 14GA steel wire. A "3/4" sleeved shirt of such butted rings can weigh upwards of 35 pounds. There are people who disagree, of course, but I think most people feel that maille isn't very protective against rattan weapons, and they don't want the handicap of a 35 pound steel blanket around them for no benefit.

About 4 or 5 years ago the first riveted maille started becoming available. It usually has a 3/8" ID and is made of 16GA wire. These shirts, also in a "3/4" sleeved configuration, tend to weigh around 26 pounds. This is better, and, being riveted, they tend to be more durable than the butted, so you do see some of them being worn.

Now we have 3/8" ID riveted shirts being made of 18GA wire. These shirts tend to weigh about 18 pounds. Now we are getting into a weight that, hopefully, people won't mind wearing. These shirts are new on the market, however, and it will probably take some time before you see maille as much as it should be seen on the field.

Steve

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Forth Armoury
Highly authentic, affordable riveted maille.

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Fri Apr 26, 2002 6:45 pm

I wear mail for my body, but in SCA combat, I need to wear extra protection under it. Currently, I have a plastic breastplate with wrap plates, but I am working on making a leather reinforced padded garment.

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Christophe de Frisselle · Fri Apr 26, 2002 9:07 pm

Wasn't there a King of the West or it might have been a kingdom in the West that won crown wearing maile? I seem to remember hearing this a few years ago...

theodrik · Post by **theodrik** » Sat Apr 27, 2002 4:11 am

I belive that it was a Caidian King who won in mail. And there are discussions regarding the armor standard of mail and boiled leather. Some are even talking about aquiring a combat rig that IS just that. As good folks have said, the 3/8" butted is heavy, but properly fitted, that mass IS protective. It has to have a gambeson, been made marginally larger that you so that the inertia of the stick hitting you is partially absorbed by the mail. I know, I fought in a short sleeved byrnie for 2 years and a knee-length haberk for 9 months after that. As a side note, no one ever mentions how much cooler it is to fight in mail. Not only is is full of holes, but the metal acts like fins of a radiator. If more good folks actually fought in it...
However, if we had an armor standard of what you wear, everyone would only be in very late period tourney plate, and the weapons used would be lethal to those in lighter gear, as we fight uncorriographed<sp>
full contact, full speed. The chain over padding with leather limbs keeps things sane and allows more folks to participate. Very few people can afford a pet armorer to repair their multi-$1,000 suit of armor to go and play demolition derby in.

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Sir Theodrik of Skane,
West, Mists, Blackwood Company
'Lude Fortier, Lude Juste, Nemini Damnum!'

Aidan Cambel · Post by **Aidan Cambel** » Sat Apr 27, 2002 6:05 pm

Time for Aidan's rant on personas/armour in the SCA.

But first, let me preface this with saying I firmly believe that each person is open to make their own choices, and I am fine with every persona I have encountered ( with the exception of leopard-pajama-dude ).

I feel the mail absence in the SCA is not due to the fact that it is not as protective as other forms. I feel this because mail is more protective than nothing, and a ton of people fight in minimal armour. Most people in the sca fight in one of two mind-thoughts in the sca - (1) I want to win and not have to carry a lot of weight around, or (2) I want to recreate the best of the best, high middle ages, where chivalry was *it* and pomp-and-circumstance ruled.

That is not saying that the lower middleage personas are not chivalrous, they are. But lets be honest - no one picks the earlier personas because they were known for their chivalric virtues.

So, where does that leave the middle middle-ages? the time when you were lucky if you had mail? well, to do the mail thing accurately, you have to sacrifice alot. you wear a gambeson, which is padded armour, under your mail. Thats hot. you have the mail - which every time you move the weight shifts and pulls on a different set of muscles. Its tiring. And you lose ALOT. It take a while to get used to that weight. So, that armour period is often passed by.

I do have a 13th century templar persona, and I fight in gambeson, gamboised cuisses, leather lower greaves, metal on elbows and knees (required) a mac-style helm, and a rivetted maille shirt. I hope to add rivetted maille chausses sometime next year. Its hot, its heavy, i lose alot, but - i am getting more and more like LOOKING like a 13th century templar. So if the crusader persona is what you want, go for it and don't let anyone discourage you.

And once again I would like to say I respect people and their choices and the reasoning for their choices. As long as you hide your plastic, its cool with me. If it weren't for the fact that I am a stubborn, hard-headed ex-Marine, I would have picked an easier persona too. ( but then, one of the reasons i did pick "templar" was so I wouldn't have to think about garb, the order tells me what I can wear

)

In Service,
Aidan

Ernst · Post by **Ernst** » Sat Apr 27, 2002 7:01 pm

I agree wit Aidan. Peoplewho claim that mail offers little protection usually don't realize that those of us who fight in mail are usually among the heaviset and most comprehensively armored fighters on the field. Most people don't fight in mail because of the fact it is not "sport's armor". It is not lightweight, it will not give you an advantage, etc. Mail also takes a lot of time to make, and you probably end up wearing a great helm with closed face and narrow occularia to boot. Then makng a good gambeson is another burden. I make the sacrifice for the sake of appearance, the average guy wearing armor from no specific time with a spun-top, bar-grill visor who wears knee pads over his blue jeans does not. I would rather lose to him and do it right, than win at the cost of losing my sense of what is right.

Terminus Est · Post by **Terminus Est** » Sat Apr 27, 2002 10:37 pm

I may be going out on a limb here, but perhaps he may not mean mail as in maille, but as in "plate mail" (ie full plate). I know that before I began learning this stuff I used both words interchangeably. Then again, I may be wrong

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"The worst foe lies within the self"

mordreth · Post by **mordreth** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 4:01 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aidan Cambel:
[B]Time for Aidan's rant on personas/armour in the SCA.

"That is not saying that the lower middleage personas are not chivalrous, they are. But lets be honest - no one picks the earlier personas because they were known for their chivalric virtues."
-Oddly enough I feel that Chivalry declined after the age of mail, and chose an early norman/breton persona for that very reason.
one oath, one lord, one set of duties, none of this sub infeudation nonsense you find in later eras.
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"So, where does that leave the middle middle-ages? the time when you were lucky if you had mail? well, to do the mail thing accurately, you have to sacrifice alot. you wear a gambeson, which is padded armour, under your mail. Thats hot. you have the mail - which every time you move the weight shifts and pulls on a different set of muscles. Its tiring. And you lose ALOT. It take a while to get used to that weight. So, that armour period is often passed by."
- but if you come into the hobby with the idea that "I want to see if I am hard enough to do what they did" it is possable to train and fight at a level that will get you knighted (SCA) in the East Kingdom

Dorkknight · Post by **Dorkknight** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 10:35 pm

I have a 13th century crusader persona...Teutonic Order.

To anyone who is thinking about doing the all maille route...TRY IT, YOU'LL LIKE IT!! It's heavy, it takes forever to make, you may lose more often, BUT it looks damn good and there's just something about metal in cloth form that is soooooo cool

Otto · Post by **Otto** » Sun Apr 28, 2002 10:54 pm

Years ago, I wore a heavy maille vest in combat. Several times it made one of my knees give out due to the extra weight and a prior skiing accident. Funny, when a knee gives out... it's not a slow, agonizing fall. You just drop like a puppet with the strings cut... then enjoy the pain.

But, gotta admit, it did look cool!

Arland · Post by **Arland** » Mon Apr 29, 2002 9:08 am

I personally like how a full maille shirt absorbs wrap shots to your butt and the upper back part of your leg.

I even had one guy go as far as to say that those shots should count because my armor pulled the power from the blow. I just had to laugh at him and tell him to go look at the assumed armor rules.

PaulyP · Post by **PaulyP** » Mon Apr 29, 2002 9:21 am

Snob? Just because I expect someone to spell "and" correctly? No. Just read over your message before you post. It's simple. If you want a coherent answer, post a coherent question.

[This message has been edited by PaulyP (edited 04-29-2002).]

Thaddeus · Post by **Thaddeus** » Mon Apr 29, 2002 9:36 am

Arland said: I even had one guy go as far as to say that those shots should count because my armor pulled the power from the blow. I just had to laugh at him and tell him to go look at the assumed armor rules.

Yeah and the body shots where they look at you, stunned because you didnt fall under their hammer like might.

I love peeling of my hauberk and showing them what isnt under it. Then there are the days when I get caught flat footed and somebody plants a really sweet shot on my hide where there is no give, those suck in a major way and make me question my sanity.

Dorkknight · Post by **Dorkknight** » Mon Apr 29, 2002 11:44 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Otto:
Years ago, I wore a heavy maille vest in combat. Several times it made one of my knees give out due to the extra weight and a prior skiing accident. Funny, when a knee gives out... it's not a slow, agonizing fall. You just drop like a puppet with the strings cut... then enjoy the pain.

But, gotta admit, it did look cool!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmmm...interesting. I dislocated my knee 4 weeks ago fighting in my maille rig. I had a funny feeling that the 40 pounds I was wearing on my upper-body had something to do with it

The knight I was fighting against said to me after the accident "I've never seen anyone go down that fast; you just dropped!"

mordreth · Post by **mordreth** » Mon Apr 29, 2002 4:39 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Thaddeus:
"and showing them what isnt under it. Then there are the days when I get caught flat footed and somebody plants a really sweet shot on my hide where there is no give, those suck in a major way and make me question my sanity. "
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
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The rest of the world spends Saturday preparing to go out drinking beer, and meeting women, we spend it dressed up like robocop, and it takes someone hitting you with a club to make you question your sanity?

Khann · Post by **Khann** » Mon Apr 29, 2002 4:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by PaulyP:
Snob? Just because I expect someone to spell "and" correctly? No. Just read over your message before you post. It's simple. If you want a coherent answer, post a coherent question.

[This message has been edited by PaulyP (edited 04-29-2002).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
At least it was spelled correctly.

Sometimes people just nit pick people to death.

Thanks Khann

Rorik Galbraith · Post by **Rorik Galbraith** » Mon Apr 29, 2002 9:18 pm

I fight in full maille. I have for quite sometime. It is a bit slower though not much and it is a lot heavier than other armour. I would love to have rivited maille, but until I can pay goodly amounts of cash for a remake of my current coat, I will keep using the butted 1/4 inch inside diameter 16guage stainless I currently have. I think it looks ok and when I am in full kit, I really feel good!

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An oath, like an arrow, can not be recalled once loosed....think well before uttering such bindings and then stand fast to them.

Josh W · Post by **Josh W** » Mon Apr 29, 2002 11:15 pm

I'll vouch for both count Rorik's appearance and his prowess in his maille. Rorik is a big guy, and looks imposing indeed when he's charging down the list at you in all that maille.

Thaddeus · Post by **Thaddeus** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 1:17 pm

I dont look like robocop! I look like a 5th century Romano-British Milites!

And nothing attracts the girls like something shiny! Course I already caught my limit.
The getting hit part is never something I set out to do, but it still seems to happen on a disgustinlgy regular basis. I hope some day to develop that Duke like balistic defense system that I come across from time to time.

Pietro da San Tebaldo · Wed May 01, 2002 9:50 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
I hope some day to develop that Duke-like balistic defense system that I come across from time to time.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Reactive Armor, anyone?

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"Or, a pall inverted surmounted by an orle Azure counterchanged"
mka: Sam Pearce

[This message has been edited by Pietro da San Tebaldo (edited 05-01-2002).]

Kevin the Hound · Post by **Kevin the Hound** » Wed May 01, 2002 10:22 am

..reactive armor?...

It's hard to shape. Every time I start trying to dish it I have to rebuild the shop. And my poor dishing stump...oy!

Kevin the Hound

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Pars Acuta in Alio (The Pointy End Goes into the Other Man)