Need help with C15 pictures

[Egfroth]

Hi all. As part of my research into being an English archer c. 1471, I've come across the attached pics. I'd appreciate it if anybody could enlighten me as to their source, date and geographical region. I think the "siege" one is French and late C15, and that the "Castor&Pollux" one is Italian, but I have no idea whether I'm right.

Anybody able to help?

[James B.]

Egfroth

On the second one I have not seen that exact image before but I have a French owned Flemish made manuscript that has the exact same art style. My guess would be that they are the same artists. The one I have is from 1470 to 1480 but it’s on my home computer and I can't look it up at the moment.

[Baron Alejandro]

In the top picture, could it reasonably be assumed that the fellow on the ladder with the shield, and the fellow in the tan top going through the breach in the walls are both wearing jupon? I'm not familiar enough with the 14th & 15th centuries....

[James B.]

Baron Alejandro

My guess is they are a livery coat, a jack, or a brigandine. I am not sure exactly which the arts are portraying with these images.

[Egfroth]

Actually, the guy in the green seems to have a livery coat over a mail shirt, with plate arms - a combination I haven't seen before in the C15. The other one appears to be wearing only a doublet on top, though I find that hard to believe.

I had to shrink the pic to get in on the Archive, but at full size you get a hellova lot more detail. Like the two guys on the bottom right, one of whom is in a mail shirt, the other in a mail shirt with a brigandine over it. And what exactly has the guy in the red top got on his right shoulder?

For the costume people, by the way, look at the joined hose with rear seams. I'd been uncertain if I was justified using a pattern based on a Durer painting (25 years too late) which showed rear seams, but now I feel rather better about it.

[earnest carruthers]

I would hazard French, 1470-80. Certainly French looking, but not the same artist, style variations on the shading.


As for English archer look up the 15th century rendition of Froissart's Chronicles as they show 'English Archers' in mid 15th outfits, with some licence.

Also Schilling Chronicles for portrayals of Anglo-Burgundian troops, with seemingly more accurate details.

Hose should be rear seamed, that is the way they are made, many many illustrations and paintings show them and it makes sense construction-wise.

You will also notice footed and presumably soled hose, referring to another thread.

[chef de chambre]

Hi Grimstone,

Regarding the Louis de Bruge Froissart, and the various Schilling chronicles, the question arises, is the information you see an accurate reflection of English archers? Or is it a reflection of Northern French and Low countries fashions? For instance, the 1468 Froissart almost never shows jacks in any way, shape, or form, which were a commonplace for English archer.

I know the debate that the illuminations depict the best equiped household retainers, but on the other hand, from looking at continental sources from France and the Low countries, I believe they are just showing a reflection of the reality on the continent, that differs from England when we get down to written documentation. The trend to half-armoured soldiers, refered to commonly as 'brigandines' in French documents is very strong, and I believe the English eventually follow the trend (perhaps to the detriment of archers effectiveness), but not until the late 1470's, into the 1480's. Even then, we have Dominic Mancinis description of Richard III northern levies, almost to a man being outfitted in jacks that are likely to be 'scottish jacks'.

On the other hand, the Schilling chronicles show most 'Burgundian' archers (4,000 English ones in the Grandson/Morat campaign alone, as I recollect - nearly half the archers of the ordonance) almost entirely in short jacks with odd high collars, and given the information we have regarding Schilling and the artist, it likely reflects some actual practise.

[earnest carruthers]

Hello Chef, yes fair point, hence taking the at least the Froissart with a pinch of salt as there is a lot of stylistic licence being used.

I reckon Schilling to be more accurate if only slightly more objectively as the prevailing styles seem to err on some sort of representation, less fantasy armour. And it was the jacks with raised nekc pieces that were on my mind, I recall them being cited a lot, esp by Gerry Embleton some years back and have yet to see one properly made, in my youth I attempted to make one but the neck piece was more a slab of quilted cloth, it worked but was uncomfortable of course.

The other 'problem' is looking at it as being an archer rather than a man in normal clothing with some harness and a bow. Which to me seems an easier approach and less prone to reliance on images of harness and being slave to the artist's vision.

It all depends to what extent of harness one wants, a jack and sallet are by far the predominant options, but as you rightly say represented but seldom, if at all in places like Froissart. I wouldn't take many cues from that one.

Also there is almost no English art of the time representing anything, save Beauchamp and that is later and also in some ways ups the armour factor, I guess due to its client status.

But if someone wanted to portray a Scottish Archer Guard, then at least one good image that is believable is useful, pink, green and white anyone?

[Egfroth]

pink, green and white anyone?

Er, no. Murry and blue. . .

Yes, I've got a fair bit of the Gruuthus Froissart and the Beaufort Chronicles, and I've seen some of the Schiller but don't yet have any examples of my own.

If you know me, you know if I intend to make something I want to get it as right as I possibly can (to the degree that I've held off making stuff because I can't be sure the information I have is reliable, and I don't want to waste my efforts making something that turns out, six months down the track, to be wrong).

So, I keep at it. Got the hose and the underpants made. Shirt is under way - I've got a pattern in calico that's almost right. When I get all the bugs out I'll make it in linen. Doublet next. Then jack or brigandine - I haven't yet decided. And only then a livery coat, hat and helmet. Working from the inside out.

But that's getting out of "historical research' and into "interpretive re-creation".

[earnest carruthers]

Egfroth, is there not an image by Jean Fouquet of the French King in a nativity being guarded by the Scottish Archer Guard and are they not wearing pink/red white and green in that order?

http://www.franco-ecossaise.asso.fr/garde.jpg

Not a particulary good screen rendering, but better than nought.
I also mentioned it because it was/is a much more realistic medieval rendering of archers, although not english.


All the other stuff sounds fine, I was not making a particular comment on the way you went about things, merely using the initial question to voice some observations about how people use the visual matter, myself included as it happens.

There is a temptation to use pictorial references too literally or to start at say military portrayals to get kit when the issue is about normal kit with the harness that one needs on top of it. I have seen many people I know get the harness and have crap basic kit, at least with an archer that is less likely to happen.

I guess an archer is just a man with a job who practices or should practice, very few existed as entities paid for archery, John Howard had one. So it is a lot easier to get that ball rolling than say a 'man at armes'.

If you are having trouble getting patterns post up, there are lots of people with some good ones to work from. Even info about proper stitching, in fact one of the SCA resource sites has cribbed the MoL textiles book and has just that kind of info on it.

[Jeff J]

Egfroth, is there not an image by Jean Fouquet of the French King in a nativity being guarded by the Scottish Archer Guard and are they not wearing pink/red white and green in that order?

http://www.franco-ecossaise.asso.fr/garde.jpg

Not a particulary good screen rendering, but better than nought.
I also mentioned it because it was/is a much more realistic medieval rendering of archers, although not english.

Yup - those are the colors of the French kings (Charles) guard in Foquette. Remember, they are the King'sguard, so they'd have far better equipment than your average field archer - especially the typical English levy.

Looking at the period English documentation (inventories, regulations muster rolls and the like) rather than the artwork, you get an impression that archers would more typically have a jack (or maile shirt) and sallet. Artists seem to like to portray lots of plate armor to spiff up their work and give a mightier impression of the armies.

[chef de chambre]

The trend however, Jeff, In France and the Low Countries, seems to put professional infantrymen in brigandines, splints, and sallets - almost predominatly so, post 1445, think of it a continental fashion to half-armoured infantry, like the almain rivets and then black and whites, and pots and mops pisan armour of a century later.

The thing is, and why I keep saying Flemish/French art is only a reliable reference for Flemish/French infantry and cavalry is that English documentary evidence shows the typical soldier (the archer) in jack and sallet, or haubergeon and sallet, but the close personal retainers of great lords increasingly are outfitted following the continental styles between, say 1460-1485.

I keep looking at English written documentation, and it does not jive with continental images. The sole exception are the personal retinues of the greater magnates, like the Duke of Norfolk, or the Earl of Oxford, who spend quite a bit of money outfitting their personal retinues (actually, more like their close household retainers who then act as NCO's of tennants in their levied forces when they call out their extrodinary retainers) in what I've come to think of as a continental fashion.

I begin to explore the notion in my soon to be published article, and I hope to publish a more compete theory in future ARS journals.

[earnest carruthers]

Jeff, exactly, which was precisely my point, ironically the only decent picture of archers are Scottish Archer Guard, not the normal jack wearing bod that should be portrayed.

English 'archer' circa 1460 - doublet, hose, hat, shoes, eating knife, underwear, coat, bow, arrows, jack, sallet. Other accessories as required, not to mention a trade.

Many archers/soldiers raised by commission had equipment provided either by the town eg Coventry (1460 I think) or by sponsors who either had to provide extra men due to their own land worth or as replacements for them by way of a fine, merchants etc who had better things to do than go to war. In addition to any kit they had. So the context of any gven 'archer' is based on where he was, in peace time he was whatever his job was and in war he may not have even been raised by commission at all and therefore may not have had any war kit other than a bow.

Luckily it is easy to set up as a bow man.

[Egfroth]

The thing is, and why I keep saying Flemish/French art is only a reliable reference for Flemish/French infantry and cavalry is that English documentary evidence shows the typical soldier (the archer) in jack and sallet, or haubergeon and sallet, but the close personal retainers of great lords increasingly are outfitted following the continental styles between, say 1460-1485.

I keep looking at English written documentation, and it does not jive with continental images. The sole exception are the personal retinues of the greater magnates, like the Duke of Norfolk, or the Earl of Oxford, who spend quite a bit of money outfitting their personal retinues (actually, more like their close household retainers who then act as NCO's of tennants in their levied forces when they call out their extrodinary retainers) in what I've come to think of as a continental fashion.

Well that should help me - the group I'm with portrays the household of the Duke of Gloucester, and I'll be an archer in that household, so I'll be able to wear brigandine, or mail, if I wish.

[chef de chambre]

The thing is, and why I keep saying Flemish/French art is only a reliable reference for Flemish/French infantry and cavalry is that English documentary evidence shows the typical soldier (the archer) in jack and sallet, or haubergeon and sallet, but the close personal retainers of great lords increasingly are outfitted following the continental styles between, say 1460-1485.

I keep looking at English written documentation, and it does not jive with continental images. The sole exception are the personal retinues of the greater magnates, like the Duke of Norfolk, or the Earl of Oxford, who spend quite a bit of money outfitting their personal retinues (actually, more like their close household retainers who then act as NCO's of tennants in their levied forces when they call out their extrodinary retainers) in what I've come to think of as a continental fashion.

Well that should help me - the group I'm with portrays the household of the Duke of Gloucester, and I'll be an archer in that household, so I'll be able to wear brigandine, or mail, if I wish.

Mail standard, brigandine, mail fauld, mail sleeves, visorless sallet, and 'spleynts' the later in date you go on. ('splints' more likely in the 1480's than the 1470's). Or you could do something completely novel, and do a 'gestron' instead of a brigandine, which shows up in records with fair frequency. Basically, a haubergorn of mail with it's own integral padding stitched to it, and cover ranging from coloured fustian to damask stitched over it.

[chef de chambre]

I should point out that a greater Magnate, such as Gloucester (King Edward IV brother) would more likely have this heavily armoured retinue trend happening, than someone for instance, like Sir Thomas Stoner (jacks and sallets listed for his men in his post-moretm list of posessions), or even Sir John Howard in the 1460's, who although very well to do, and shortly to become the Duke of Norfolk when his cousin dies (he was loaning the Mobray Duke of Norfolk money when necessary) still has nearly half his personal retinue armed in jacks and sallets, with the remainder in gestrons and brigandines.

Come to think of it, it is Dominic Mancini telling us Gloucesters men entering London in the 1480's are almost completely outfitted in soft thigh length jacks, and sallets - since there are several thousand such men, many are likely his tennants, but Mancini observed very few in any other type of armour, and his household men would have been delegated to lead the tennants. Maybe we see it (the trend to half-armoured retainers) with John de Vere, and John Howard because of their connections to the Low Countries, and the influence of Low Countries culture on East Anglia, whereas someone like Gloucester would be less influenced by it, or his retinue would be due to the North not sharing that cultural influence to the same degree.

[Jeff J]

The trend however, Jeff, In France and the Low Countries, seems to put professional infantrymen in brigandines, splints, and sallets - almost predominatly so, post 1445, think of it a continental fashion to half-armoured infantry, like the almain rivets and then black and whites, and pots and mops pisan armour of a century later.

Ya - agree completely, but his question is about the English.

The philosophy seems to be for quantity of inexpensive common archers in England and fewer quality/ better-equipped men on the continent.

This reflects the different social strata. There seems a lesser difference between the higher and lower classes in England. We read much about the poor French common man and how relatively more affuent their counterparts were in England.

[chef de chambre]

Which is why I have pointed out to him that Flemish and Northern French artwork is an unreliable indicator of what English archers looked like. Unfortunately, many people rely on the Louis de Bruge Froissart images heavily, unaware that they are reflecting the reality of Northen France and the Low Countries, and transposing them onto England or English impressions.

Documentary evidence, as I have been pointing out, shows that this is not a safe assumption to make. Unfortunately for all of us interested in trying to do accurate impressions, the Louis de Bruge Froissart images have to be amongst the most heavily published 15th century images of all time, scattered through hundreds of books over the last hundred years, published online by the Bibliotheque Nationale, and found all over internet sites dealing with arms and armour - every image the Armour Archive uses on it's splash pages for forums is taken directly from the Louis de Bruge Froissart, in example. "Looking like one stepped out of a miniature" in this case is a very bad thing if one is trying to do an impression of a mid 15th century English bowman, or a German halberdier or crossbowman, in example. it all ends up looking like soldiers of Northern France and the Low Countries, which just isn't right. It gets even more discouraging when people make the assumption that because it is an edition of Froissart, it must reflect 14th century images - fortunately, I run across that less frequently nowadays/