I think the main reason I would probably never join the SCA is because of the combat and the associated rules on fighting. Having trained in historical martial arts and now run my own school I cant imagine using anything other than steel as well.
Of those member here that are in the SCA, I have a few questions maybe some of you can help me with.
How many of you have experimented with steel fighting? What were the outcomes?
Why do I get such a negative response from the local SCA members when I try to promote my school and the amazing things you can learn from western martial arts?
I think the big question I have after watching a lot of SCA fighter practices is this. If the main idea of practice is learning to fight, why are the individual bouts so short. Also, why not "rhino hide" during the practices to get the most out of it? I have not seen very many skilled fighters probably becuase they only practice for maybe 1/2 hour every week.
Maybe this is not true for all branches, but the one locally here in NE seems to be this way.
I guess enough of my ramblings for now. Any comments?
Mike
my thoughts on the SCA and fighting. Any comments?
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mike mercier
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Re: my thoughts on the SCA and fighting. Any comments?
mike mercier wrote:I think the main reason I would probably never join the SCA is because of the combat and the associated rules on fighting. Having trained in historical martial arts and now run my own school I cant imagine using anything other than steel as well.
Of those member here that are in the SCA, I have a few questions maybe some of you can help me with.
How many of you have experimented with steel fighting? What were the outcomes?
Why do I get such a negative response from the local SCA members when I try to promote my school and the amazing things you can learn from western martial arts?
Basic human nature creates a 'we vs. they' mechanism. You are an outsider and, therefore, to be distrusted. Past experience with other groups (particularly some of the early WMA groups, i.e. John Clements early books) has been very antagonistic with those groups roundly criticizing the SCA and insisting that their particular group does things better. The SCA is also a remarkably conservative organization and slow to change.
I suggest you find a couple of white belts and invite them to some of your training sessions. To put this in perspective, this is the equivalent of finding some EMA black belts and inviting them to take classes at your dojo. In my experience the upper echelon SCA fighters know all about the fundamentals of fighting and can apply them very effectively within their chosen field of martial activity. So you're going to be showing them a lot of what they already know. They are also, by and large, going to be uninterested in technique that cannot be added to their martial skill set (i.e. they can't use it in SCA combat).
Good luck to you.
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Aonghus
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In answer to your questions,
I have fenced (not SCA but theatrical / Olympic) and it was fun but it did not provide any sort of "adrenaline rush" or competitive feeling. It was also hard to get to practice and only a few other participated. I have not had the opportunity to participate in WMA or other steel martial arts. Sadly, there are no schools or practitioners close to me
I couldn't speak to this other than to say, they may feel that you are trying to "steal" their members or potential members, whether it be true or not. They may just not be interested. I don't really know; where are you and I may be able to answer this question more completely.
I have not had this experience at practice (when I get to go). When I do get to practice, it is a time of testing what will work for me and learning from other participants. We fight a bout then critique and tweak what we are doing from there. We constantly question during practice, "Was that flat?" "Now that you've hit me with that 4 time, how do I defend against it?", etc, etc, etc. We also do not stop at the end of "one good blow" as we do in a tourney or melee, but call the shots good, bad, tippy, glancing or whatever. There is much more discussion of the blows than there would be in a tourney or melee. We talk to each other while fighting, adding advice and encouragement to our opponent.
I will agree with you that many fighters in the SCA do NOT train seriously (I know I don't), but do all martial artists train 3-5 times a week for hours a day? SCA combat is as much a game (and a VERY fun one...where else can you find 3000 man melees and WEEKLY events) as a martial art and as such draws many people who are not as dedicated as others. Do not make the mistake of thinking that ALL of us only train sparingly or not at all. Some of us train constantly and the training shows. The best of us are well trained, athletic, and "pure magic" to watch in our combat.
*edited because I can't spell "pratice"
How many of you have experimented with steel fighting? What were the outcomes?
I have fenced (not SCA but theatrical / Olympic) and it was fun but it did not provide any sort of "adrenaline rush" or competitive feeling. It was also hard to get to practice and only a few other participated. I have not had the opportunity to participate in WMA or other steel martial arts. Sadly, there are no schools or practitioners close to me
Why do I get such a negative response from the local SCA members when I try to promote my school and the amazing things you can learn from western martial arts?
I couldn't speak to this other than to say, they may feel that you are trying to "steal" their members or potential members, whether it be true or not. They may just not be interested. I don't really know; where are you and I may be able to answer this question more completely.
I think the big question I have after watching a lot of SCA fighter practices is this. If the main idea of practice is learning to fight, why are the individual bouts so short. Also, why not "rhino hide" during the practices to get the most out of it? I have not seen very many skilled fighters probably because they only practice for maybe 1/2 hour every week.
I have not had this experience at practice (when I get to go). When I do get to practice, it is a time of testing what will work for me and learning from other participants. We fight a bout then critique and tweak what we are doing from there. We constantly question during practice, "Was that flat?" "Now that you've hit me with that 4 time, how do I defend against it?", etc, etc, etc. We also do not stop at the end of "one good blow" as we do in a tourney or melee, but call the shots good, bad, tippy, glancing or whatever. There is much more discussion of the blows than there would be in a tourney or melee. We talk to each other while fighting, adding advice and encouragement to our opponent.
I will agree with you that many fighters in the SCA do NOT train seriously (I know I don't), but do all martial artists train 3-5 times a week for hours a day? SCA combat is as much a game (and a VERY fun one...where else can you find 3000 man melees and WEEKLY events) as a martial art and as such draws many people who are not as dedicated as others. Do not make the mistake of thinking that ALL of us only train sparingly or not at all. Some of us train constantly and the training shows. The best of us are well trained, athletic, and "pure magic" to watch in our combat.
*edited because I can't spell "pratice"
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Jehan de Pelham
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There are many possible responses to your question. My answer is only one, and it is not likely a typical one, because I am not a typical SCA participant.
I have not experimented with steel fighting. I have never been in a set of circumstances where it was much of an option. I am currently near to some WMA practicioners, but my work schedule is such that in the nine months I have been here I have only been able to get in three hours of I.33 work.
I propose that the negative response you perceive is based on two things: 1, Unfamiliarity with this new material and what it may mean. 2, Unfamiliarity with you as a person. There may also be a subconscious feeling that you are interested in showing people what you love, but not in participating in what they love. Perhaps your intent bleeds over and is perceived at a just below conscious level, or alternately, it might be assumed that this is your position.
The individual bouts are so short because of the artifices of the rules of the list. Since the combats are fought to a simulated wounds presupposition, they can be over with very quickly. In many cases, the combat seems to be blossfechten in duration (from what I understand, many such combats based on the maneuvers could be over with before one combatant even got to make an attack), but fought in harness. What you see is a number of very short duration bouts.
Regarding "rhino hiding," a solution can be found in agreements between individual combatants, but wisely for those who cannot juggle many separate concepts, many are loth to train themselves to a way of combat outside the common culture of men at arms within the SCA. The language of combat is already showing frays at the edges (as is discussed often enough here about cultural differences between SCA Kingdoms), and further diversity might be feared. I for my part highly recommend changes in the martial culture toward a "counted blows, no acted out wounds" assumption, which is closer to what we do in actuality (a behourd with arms of peace), but not everyone feels that way and so it is as it is. I have done very fine combats with stout combatants who have said to me "let us take only the most stout of blows to the head or the heart," and these bouts have lasted for minutes some of them, and been a source of very great satisfaction, because they come closer in my mind to what the realities of armored combat must have been: whirling engagements which are unresolved and then a disengagement, the seeking of the ingress strategy, the hurling of blows and battering of bodies together, until one man at arms is worn down enough that his defense slips and the other finds home the blow.
I agree that there are not very many skilled fighters because of the lack of practice time. It was my constant lament that I could not gather the will to practice more. In the Army you tend to have the body, but not the time to train in the art of using weapons in deeds of arms.
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
I have not experimented with steel fighting. I have never been in a set of circumstances where it was much of an option. I am currently near to some WMA practicioners, but my work schedule is such that in the nine months I have been here I have only been able to get in three hours of I.33 work.
I propose that the negative response you perceive is based on two things: 1, Unfamiliarity with this new material and what it may mean. 2, Unfamiliarity with you as a person. There may also be a subconscious feeling that you are interested in showing people what you love, but not in participating in what they love. Perhaps your intent bleeds over and is perceived at a just below conscious level, or alternately, it might be assumed that this is your position.
The individual bouts are so short because of the artifices of the rules of the list. Since the combats are fought to a simulated wounds presupposition, they can be over with very quickly. In many cases, the combat seems to be blossfechten in duration (from what I understand, many such combats based on the maneuvers could be over with before one combatant even got to make an attack), but fought in harness. What you see is a number of very short duration bouts.
Regarding "rhino hiding," a solution can be found in agreements between individual combatants, but wisely for those who cannot juggle many separate concepts, many are loth to train themselves to a way of combat outside the common culture of men at arms within the SCA. The language of combat is already showing frays at the edges (as is discussed often enough here about cultural differences between SCA Kingdoms), and further diversity might be feared. I for my part highly recommend changes in the martial culture toward a "counted blows, no acted out wounds" assumption, which is closer to what we do in actuality (a behourd with arms of peace), but not everyone feels that way and so it is as it is. I have done very fine combats with stout combatants who have said to me "let us take only the most stout of blows to the head or the heart," and these bouts have lasted for minutes some of them, and been a source of very great satisfaction, because they come closer in my mind to what the realities of armored combat must have been: whirling engagements which are unresolved and then a disengagement, the seeking of the ingress strategy, the hurling of blows and battering of bodies together, until one man at arms is worn down enough that his defense slips and the other finds home the blow.
I agree that there are not very many skilled fighters because of the lack of practice time. It was my constant lament that I could not gather the will to practice more. In the Army you tend to have the body, but not the time to train in the art of using weapons in deeds of arms.
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
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M S Anderson
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Mike:
Yours is an excellent question. I have done practice scenarios where we don't take blows, just say good etc to promote technique. It is also good for stamina, because in a large melee you can throw hundreds of shots more or less in a row. Just tell the person with whom you were practicing to just keep fighting non-stop.
Wars. Wars and big melees are a rush that is hard to describe. Fighting 500 on a side is an experience I don't think any other organization can offer.
BEDLAM
Bear Clan,
Tuchux
Yours is an excellent question. I have done practice scenarios where we don't take blows, just say good etc to promote technique. It is also good for stamina, because in a large melee you can throw hundreds of shots more or less in a row. Just tell the person with whom you were practicing to just keep fighting non-stop.
Wars. Wars and big melees are a rush that is hard to describe. Fighting 500 on a side is an experience I don't think any other organization can offer.
BEDLAM
Bear Clan,
Tuchux
'Live steel' fighting to me just looks to be a game with different rules. It might be neat to play with steel swords but it is just another game. I think the SCA appeals to a lot of us because of the large events and the competition that goes with the club. There is no greater rush (with your clothes on) than seeing 3k fighters on the field and knowing things are about to get ugly.
You possibly get bad reactions because of your approach. How do you approach these guys? Honestly if someone who doesn't fight says 'hey I have a better way of fighting' or something like that then I'd probably ignore you too. The video I've seen of some of the live steel stuff isn't really all that impressive. Perhaps if you strapped the armor on and showed the SCA guys that you have skill and can play their game, now come play my game you might have some more luck. I know I don't much listen to people who don't fight when they start talking about fighting.
Bouts are so short in the practices I attend because we're talking about the fight as we're practicing. We may throw a couple of shots and then talk about what worked or didn't work. Also, this is a game for most of us, we don't approach it as a 'martial art' with specific training regimens. We're out here to have fun.
You possibly get bad reactions because of your approach. How do you approach these guys? Honestly if someone who doesn't fight says 'hey I have a better way of fighting' or something like that then I'd probably ignore you too. The video I've seen of some of the live steel stuff isn't really all that impressive. Perhaps if you strapped the armor on and showed the SCA guys that you have skill and can play their game, now come play my game you might have some more luck. I know I don't much listen to people who don't fight when they start talking about fighting.
Bouts are so short in the practices I attend because we're talking about the fight as we're practicing. We may throw a couple of shots and then talk about what worked or didn't work. Also, this is a game for most of us, we don't approach it as a 'martial art' with specific training regimens. We're out here to have fun.
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Thorstenn
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Hi Mike,
The SCA is just fine the way it is, I love this combat style. That said, if you or anybody else did live steel in central Fla. I would be all over it. I have taken feiorie(sp) and it was a blast. but once a year or longer is no fun.
Also most groups IMO don't do hard hitting with very little of target.
The SCA hardly limits it time line as well Pre 17th is a real big door way to history.
Thanks and good luck.
The SCA is just fine the way it is, I love this combat style. That said, if you or anybody else did live steel in central Fla. I would be all over it. I have taken feiorie(sp) and it was a blast. but once a year or longer is no fun.
Also most groups IMO don't do hard hitting with very little of target.
The SCA hardly limits it time line as well Pre 17th is a real big door way to history.
Thanks and good luck.
Duke Thorstenn the WrongHand
Trimaris.
"A fully equipped duke costs as much to keep up as two Dreadnoughts, and dukes are just as great a terror -- and they last longer."
David Lloyd George
"Amat victoria curam."
Trimaris.
"A fully equipped duke costs as much to keep up as two Dreadnoughts, and dukes are just as great a terror -- and they last longer."
David Lloyd George
"Amat victoria curam."
My experiences with those who resist horribly either WMA and/or steel come from a couple of mindsets:
1) There is no way to "do live steel" safely. All those who even think of steel combat will eventually end up dead or hurt doing it. It's just insane, don't even think of it.
2) Even if there WAS a way to "do live steel" safely, your training in the SCA makes it impossible for _you_ to ever do it safely, because you will instinctively hit as hard as possible, thus making it unsafe.
3) Medieval fighting techniques are pointless in the SCA, as we have a very structured style that is non-evolutionary, and it has no room for "real" (or "fake", depending on which particular person I have talked to) medieval combat
4) "I'm afraid they are going to learn some trick I cannot beat, so I will tell everyone not to learn that".
All of these can very quickly and easily be proven wrong.. but sometimes it's simply not worth the time and effort.
That is not to say all the people who have repeated these to me have been the originators of the thoughts.. many of them, I discovered, had all learned it from one person or one core group.
And if you don't think cult of personality and politics play a LOT within our game, even in the fighting culture, look around more.
Maeryk
1) There is no way to "do live steel" safely. All those who even think of steel combat will eventually end up dead or hurt doing it. It's just insane, don't even think of it.
2) Even if there WAS a way to "do live steel" safely, your training in the SCA makes it impossible for _you_ to ever do it safely, because you will instinctively hit as hard as possible, thus making it unsafe.
3) Medieval fighting techniques are pointless in the SCA, as we have a very structured style that is non-evolutionary, and it has no room for "real" (or "fake", depending on which particular person I have talked to) medieval combat
4) "I'm afraid they are going to learn some trick I cannot beat, so I will tell everyone not to learn that".
All of these can very quickly and easily be proven wrong.. but sometimes it's simply not worth the time and effort.
That is not to say all the people who have repeated these to me have been the originators of the thoughts.. many of them, I discovered, had all learned it from one person or one core group.
And if you don't think cult of personality and politics play a LOT within our game, even in the fighting culture, look around more.
Maeryk
Re: my thoughts on the SCA and fighting. Any comments?
mike mercier wrote:I think the main reason I would probably never join the SCA is because of the combat and the associated rules on fighting. Having trained in historical martial arts and now run my own school I cant imagine using anything other than steel as well.
Of those member here that are in the SCA, I have a few questions maybe some of you can help me with.
How many of you have experimented with steel fighting? What were the outcomes?
Why do I get such a negative response from the local SCA members when I try to promote my school and the amazing things you can learn from western martial arts?
I think the big question I have after watching a lot of SCA fighter practices is this. If the main idea of practice is learning to fight, why are the individual bouts so short. Also, why not "rhino hide" during the practices to get the most out of it? I have not seen very many skilled fighters probably becuase they only practice for maybe 1/2 hour every week.
Maybe this is not true for all branches, but the one locally here in NE seems to be this way.
I guess enough of my ramblings for now. Any comments?
Mike
Well... If you go to SCA practices with the open stance that you wouldn't want to fight SCA, why would you expect them to be interested in what you have to offer ? Pitching your product without really understanding what your audience does is also probably part of your problem. It takes some time to develop an appreciation of the skill levels that really are present among the SCA's fighting population.
I haven't experimented with steel fighting. Why not ? Probably comes down to access and attitudes. I'm not uninterested in trying some steel, but finding some place that I can get to reasonably and that won't begin by condemning my SCA involvement isn't the easiest thing in the world and it hasn't moved high enough on my interest list to get me over the threshhold.
SCA practices vary tremendously - how do you define "alot of practices" ? What levels of SCA fighters are participating in these practices that you have watched ?
Personally when I'm sparring at a practice I will mostly call out the blows rather than acting them out. I also spend some time on the pell, even at practice, and will do some slow-work if a partner is available.
While I would agree that practicing only half an hour a week will not produce a skilled practitioner of any martial art, there are certainly many SCA fighters who practice far more than that and who are skilled.
Bottom line - if you aren't interested in their game, why should they be interested in yours ? It's pretty basic human psychology, more or less as Jester said.
Gavin
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Mike Garrett (Orc)
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After 20 years of LARP and Live Steel re-enactment (Including full contact steel), I decided to give this SCA a go. This was despite a large number of re-enactors (steel) badmouthing the SCA.
Did I have problems adjusting? Yes - Being mainly used to pulling blows and NOT targetting the head it was awkward at first to be effective in SCA combat.
Which do I enjoy more? - Without a doubt the SCA, combat is great, and you have to remember that the fighting isn't the be all and end all. There are other interesting and fun aspects.
All I can say is don't knock it until you've tried it. In all honesty the SCA is the best fun I've had with my clothes on (although if I could just get those damn LARPers to use wooden wasters......... )
Did I have problems adjusting? Yes - Being mainly used to pulling blows and NOT targetting the head it was awkward at first to be effective in SCA combat.
Which do I enjoy more? - Without a doubt the SCA, combat is great, and you have to remember that the fighting isn't the be all and end all. There are other interesting and fun aspects.
All I can say is don't knock it until you've tried it. In all honesty the SCA is the best fun I've had with my clothes on (although if I could just get those damn LARPers to use wooden wasters.........
)It'z coz I iz green, innit?!
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DELETEMYACCOUNT
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"How many of you have experimented with steel fighting? What were the outcomes?"
I tried it a long time ago. It sucked for me becausae I like to hit people, I dont like the idea of pulling blows or not targeting heads. I wanna FIGHT. I'd much rather fight for real* with rattan weapons than pretend to fight with real weapons. Thats just me.
"Why do I get such a negative response from the local SCA members when I try to promote my school and the amazing things you can learn from western martial arts?"
Dunno. Are you being nice when you promote your school?
"I think the big question I have after watching a lot of SCA fighter practices is this. If the main idea of practice is learning to fight, why are the individual bouts so short. Also, why not "rhino hide" during the practices to get the most out of it? I have not seen very many skilled fighters probably becuase they only practice for maybe 1/2 hour every week."
The way the fighting is set up the fight is over when you hit a 'kill' spot. Just like if you get hit by the paintball you're out. Dont rhino hide. You'll get a bad rep as a cheater and someone will hurt you for doing it. I dunno about the guys near you but I try and fight twice a week for a couple of hours each. I'd like to do more but health restrictions sometimes keep that from happening.
* Real meaning full contact blows, no pulled shots.
I tried it a long time ago. It sucked for me becausae I like to hit people, I dont like the idea of pulling blows or not targeting heads. I wanna FIGHT. I'd much rather fight for real* with rattan weapons than pretend to fight with real weapons. Thats just me.
"Why do I get such a negative response from the local SCA members when I try to promote my school and the amazing things you can learn from western martial arts?"
Dunno. Are you being nice when you promote your school?
"I think the big question I have after watching a lot of SCA fighter practices is this. If the main idea of practice is learning to fight, why are the individual bouts so short. Also, why not "rhino hide" during the practices to get the most out of it? I have not seen very many skilled fighters probably becuase they only practice for maybe 1/2 hour every week."
The way the fighting is set up the fight is over when you hit a 'kill' spot. Just like if you get hit by the paintball you're out. Dont rhino hide. You'll get a bad rep as a cheater and someone will hurt you for doing it. I dunno about the guys near you but I try and fight twice a week for a couple of hours each. I'd like to do more but health restrictions sometimes keep that from happening.
* Real meaning full contact blows, no pulled shots.
The carrot is the noblest of insects.
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mike mercier
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Thanks for all the responses.
M S Anderson- I have started the Nebraska Swordfighters Guild. The website is located at www.mercierarmory.com/nsg/nsg.html We primarily focus on Fiore longsword, but I am now teaching dagger, unarmed, and arming sword. I trained with Steaphen Fick in CA, and hope to have him out for a weekend seminar for my students.
Going back to the comments about John Clements, I do really have a lot of respect for him. He tells it like it is and although he has a lot of negative things to say regarding the SCA, if you look at it from a western martial arts view, and a historical view, it all makes sense. The idea of SCA is more of a game while WMA fighting is just what it says a "martial art" no more or less than anything from Asia.
I dont want to make enemies, but I am the type of person that if I believe something can be improved upon, I will speak my mind to attempt to atleast convince some people that it might work better that way.
I dont know, maybe I am just putting too much effort into something that they might just not be interested in. I do my demos at the ren faires, do some advertising on the side and I am willing to teach anyone who wants to learn. If there is interest with them, then I would be happy to have them in the classes.
Mike
M S Anderson- I have started the Nebraska Swordfighters Guild. The website is located at www.mercierarmory.com/nsg/nsg.html We primarily focus on Fiore longsword, but I am now teaching dagger, unarmed, and arming sword. I trained with Steaphen Fick in CA, and hope to have him out for a weekend seminar for my students.
Going back to the comments about John Clements, I do really have a lot of respect for him. He tells it like it is and although he has a lot of negative things to say regarding the SCA, if you look at it from a western martial arts view, and a historical view, it all makes sense. The idea of SCA is more of a game while WMA fighting is just what it says a "martial art" no more or less than anything from Asia.
I dont want to make enemies, but I am the type of person that if I believe something can be improved upon, I will speak my mind to attempt to atleast convince some people that it might work better that way.
I dont know, maybe I am just putting too much effort into something that they might just not be interested in. I do my demos at the ren faires, do some advertising on the side and I am willing to teach anyone who wants to learn. If there is interest with them, then I would be happy to have them in the classes.
Mike
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Mike Garrett (Orc)
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Mike, sounds interesting - long way for me to go though 
Am I alone in believing that the term "Martial Art" is inappropriate in many contexts?
I look at what I do (re-enactment, SCA etc) as "Martial Combat".
Mind you, many would say that that is correct, as there is little "art" in the way I fight, lol.
Am I alone in believing that the term "Martial Art" is inappropriate in many contexts?
I look at what I do (re-enactment, SCA etc) as "Martial Combat".
Mind you, many would say that that is correct, as there is little "art" in the way I fight, lol.
It'z coz I iz green, innit?!
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Tim Merritt
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mike mercier wrote: Going back to the comments about John Clements, I do really have a lot of respect for him. He tells it like it is and although he has a lot of negative things to say regarding the SCA, if you look at it from a western martial arts view, and a historical view, it all makes sense. The idea of SCA is more of a game while WMA fighting is just what it says a "martial art" no more or less than anything from Asia.
Let's not make this a personal attack on Mr. Clements, who has done a great deal to promote the study of WMA. I think he tells it like he sees it, but I don't necessarily agree that he tells it like it is. And the attitude he (and others, he is far from alone in this respect) expressed in his early books regarding organizations like the SCA is one of the reasons that your local SCA folks are looking at you funny. When you say that WMA is a martial art and SCA combat is just a game you are, to many SCA people, denigrating a hobby they love. This will not endear you to them.
From an SCA perspective you are also living in a Kingdom that does not allow rapier combat. A lot of them are going to equate WMA study with rapier combat. So you are working with that additional handicap.
If you're ever in the Denver area, please let me know so that we can invite you out to one of the Rocky Mountain Historical Combat Guild's practices. We are primarily Fiore practitioners, but also have some Lichtenauer and I.33 people.
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Johann ColdIron
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Hmm, everyone has covered alot of ground so far. Hard to find where to add.
Not easy to tell over the internet but the reception you received from the SCA group could be a couple things. Competion for resources people and money makes friction. Aside from the cost of our armor, costumes and travel once we pay our annual fee the SCA is essentially free. No Dojo fees. I'd love to get back to Wing Chun but I can't justify the 60 bucks a month. After buying all the other crap I mentioned we can't afford it
Also some look at the promotion of a school that costs money to be pandering, especially if you are not an active member of the group you are recruiting from.
My experience with steel has been heavy style rapiers within the SCA ruleset. It is fun but coming from 15 years of Rattan combat I constantly have to keep myself in check. I am not a big guy but I learned how to generate more power that the rapier ruleset allows. It is hard to turn off. There is something to being able to hit the person you are fighting with pretty much all you have and not worry about breaking them.
I hope that an in between alternative will evolve. Other than a few gaps at the hips my concealed rig for armored combat would be proof against cut an thrust blows from a steel sword. Padded plastic limbs and body, steel gorget and burgonet w/ rapier mesh faceplate. I don't know if we could ever go full speed without damaging the swords but I think we could get closer. I'd bet I would not be the first to sign up.
As for the rhino practice- I've seen it done and don't think it teaches the right responses to a killing blow for those starting out. It can be helpful later in a students experience for cardio and for dealing with an unresponsive opponent. Important that the fighters still call out the blows that are good so that tempers don't flare.
1/2 hour a week sounds like they are doing alot of gabbing during practice. To remain competitive in our game two lengthy practices a week is a minimum. Our local favorite saying is fight now, talk later!
Not easy to tell over the internet but the reception you received from the SCA group could be a couple things. Competion for resources people and money makes friction. Aside from the cost of our armor, costumes and travel once we pay our annual fee the SCA is essentially free. No Dojo fees. I'd love to get back to Wing Chun but I can't justify the 60 bucks a month. After buying all the other crap I mentioned we can't afford it
Also some look at the promotion of a school that costs money to be pandering, especially if you are not an active member of the group you are recruiting from.
My experience with steel has been heavy style rapiers within the SCA ruleset. It is fun but coming from 15 years of Rattan combat I constantly have to keep myself in check. I am not a big guy but I learned how to generate more power that the rapier ruleset allows. It is hard to turn off. There is something to being able to hit the person you are fighting with pretty much all you have and not worry about breaking them.
I hope that an in between alternative will evolve. Other than a few gaps at the hips my concealed rig for armored combat would be proof against cut an thrust blows from a steel sword. Padded plastic limbs and body, steel gorget and burgonet w/ rapier mesh faceplate. I don't know if we could ever go full speed without damaging the swords but I think we could get closer. I'd bet I would not be the first to sign up.
As for the rhino practice- I've seen it done and don't think it teaches the right responses to a killing blow for those starting out. It can be helpful later in a students experience for cardio and for dealing with an unresponsive opponent. Important that the fighters still call out the blows that are good so that tempers don't flare.
1/2 hour a week sounds like they are doing alot of gabbing during practice. To remain competitive in our game two lengthy practices a week is a minimum. Our local favorite saying is fight now, talk later!
John Cope/ Sir Johann ColdIron/ Don Juan Calderon
I'm not dead yet!
I'm not dead yet!
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Diglach Mac Cein
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Mike -
Maybe it is how I'm reading your posts....
This sounds a little condencending - If you would never join the SCA, and run your own school, why do you care? If you can't imagine using anything other than steel, why approach and SCA group?
If you are looking for students (customers), then you are going about it in an odd way. This is sort of like saying:
"The main reason I would never play American Football is because of the action and the associated rules of the game. Having learned to play European football and now running my own school I can't imagine playing any other game"
See? If this is how you are approaching the SCA in your area, it is the same "What I do is better, you're game is inferior" vibe that many of us have heard before... Not a good sale.
And, depending on how you are "promoting your school", it might come across anywhere on the spectrum from "I'm superior to you becuase I do a real art" to "I'm here to steal members from your group". Your opening statement tells me you have nver tried rattan combat, never will, and probably won't promote the idea that the two sports (WMA and SCA combat) can go hand in hand.
And "Telling it like it is" doesn't mean being an asshole. And in some of his commentary on the SCA, Mr. Clemnets is an asshole. Not a great way to attact students away from the SCA.
Which is what it sound like you are doing.
Oh - and I do "rhino hide" (not a good term, BTW - know your audience)during practice. It's called sparring. We still stop for commentary / instruction, but we don't stop for every blow.
Oh, and people in the SCA do study WMA (many people on this board), and enjoy both. It is possible for both to be viable activites. They offer different experiences, training, and learning.
Maybe it is how I'm reading your posts....
I think the main reason I would probably never join the SCA is because of the combat and the associated rules on fighting. Having trained in historical martial arts and now run my own school I cant imagine using anything other than steel as well.
This sounds a little condencending - If you would never join the SCA, and run your own school, why do you care? If you can't imagine using anything other than steel, why approach and SCA group?
If you are looking for students (customers), then you are going about it in an odd way. This is sort of like saying:
"The main reason I would never play American Football is because of the action and the associated rules of the game. Having learned to play European football and now running my own school I can't imagine playing any other game"
See? If this is how you are approaching the SCA in your area, it is the same "What I do is better, you're game is inferior" vibe that many of us have heard before... Not a good sale.
And, depending on how you are "promoting your school", it might come across anywhere on the spectrum from "I'm superior to you becuase I do a real art" to "I'm here to steal members from your group". Your opening statement tells me you have nver tried rattan combat, never will, and probably won't promote the idea that the two sports (WMA and SCA combat) can go hand in hand.
And "Telling it like it is" doesn't mean being an asshole. And in some of his commentary on the SCA, Mr. Clemnets is an asshole. Not a great way to attact students away from the SCA.
Which is what it sound like you are doing.
Oh - and I do "rhino hide" (not a good term, BTW - know your audience)during practice. It's called sparring. We still stop for commentary / instruction, but we don't stop for every blow.
Oh, and people in the SCA do study WMA (many people on this board), and enjoy both. It is possible for both to be viable activites. They offer different experiences, training, and learning.
Last edited by Diglach Mac Cein on Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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william
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Mike wrote:I dont want to make enemies, but I am the type of person that if I believe something can be improved upon, I will speak my mind to attempt to atleast convince some people that it might work better that way.
OK, I think here's where the issue lies. Picture us as being dedicated lovers of a certain colour - you as the WMA person really like blue, I as the SCA guy favour red a lot, and a friend of mine who really is into LARP favours yellow. You can walk up to us and say "Hey, man, wear blue - it's a much nicer colour!". We will most likely not understand your reasoning. At the same time, even as a close friend I won't be able to make the other guy admit that red is cooler than yellow. There is no way to argue that one colour is "better" than the other.
Same with WMA, SCA and LARP - keep in mind that we are *not* in the same boat. While some aspects might be found in the two activities there are others that differ *a lot*. Now, the WMA path might be the best way for you - you find in it what you are looking for. The SCA path quite likely is the best way for me - so far I've found all I was looking for along it (ok - sometimes search time is loong). But as we are pursuing different goals and the evaluation of these goals is done by the individual it doesn't make much sense to me to state that "WMA does work better than SCA". What does it work better for? And is this specific thing *my* goal?
You are right - to pursue the study of medieval swordfighting technique the WMA are maybe the best choice (the SCA definitely isn't). But if one wants to explore other aspects of medieval culture most "dojo-style" WMA schools won't be a good source. I mean - do you guys have René Tournaments?
So, one big thing is that you start with a "my way is better than your way" approach. As others pointed out, this does not necessarily create friends. The other thing is that it looks like you are using the local SCA group as a recruitment base for your own thing - to be honest, if somebody would show up in my group and target people (especially newbies) inviting them to play with a different group I'd well make sure this person doesn't feel welcome too much.
Oh, and finally I think it is important to point out that the "me better than you" thing is something not only typical for the WMA or reenactment people - SCAdians can do it pretty well, too.
Cheers,
William
P.S.: And the less intense training definitely is a local thing. Ok, I'm overweight and in bad shape, but I try to fight to the physical limit every week.
+ Noli fortius me ferire +
Ld. William Gifford
Shire of Two Seas, Drachenwald, SCA
Ld. William Gifford
Shire of Two Seas, Drachenwald, SCA
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Russ Mitchell
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Re: my thoughts on the SCA and fighting. Any comments?
mike mercier wrote: Why do I get such a negative response from the local SCA members when I try to promote my school and the amazing things you can learn from western martial arts?
Perhaps because, from what I've seen, the average hard-training SCA fighter has better timing, better flow, and (particularly if they follow the Bellatrix school) much better overall body mechanics than 4/5 of the wma practitioners I've seen... many of whom, including some folks I've seen running seminars, shouldn't even be let NEAR a teaching certificate. Quite a bit of the "amazing things" I've seen taught were indeed truly amazing... but not in a good way.
Posted by Mike;
"I dont want to make enemies, but I am the type of person that if I believe something can be improved upon, I will speak my mind to attempt to atleast convince some people that it might work better that way. "
Then why do start out by trashing us, many of us like what we do, have been doing it for years (27 in my case) and resent someone coming along and trashing us after seeing a few small practices. You have a group you play with, go play there if you don't like what you see or maybe you should try SCA fighting before pronouncing how flawed we are from ahigh.
Ronald
"I dont want to make enemies, but I am the type of person that if I believe something can be improved upon, I will speak my mind to attempt to atleast convince some people that it might work better that way. "
Then why do start out by trashing us, many of us like what we do, have been doing it for years (27 in my case) and resent someone coming along and trashing us after seeing a few small practices. You have a group you play with, go play there if you don't like what you see or maybe you should try SCA fighting before pronouncing how flawed we are from ahigh.
Ronald
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Guy Dawkins
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Re: my thoughts on the SCA and fighting. Any comments?
mike mercier wrote:I think the main reason I would probably never join the SCA is because of the combat and the associated rules on fighting.
Your first sentence may have a lot to do with your fifth sentence:
Why do I get such a negative response from the local SCA members when I try to promote my school and the amazing things you can learn from western martial arts?
Mike
I have taken Fiore, Giganti and Capo Ferro and would like to take I.33, Liechtenauer(sic) and Fabris. I fight rapier in the SCA and am working on my armoured combat. I know many here in Northern IL who do both.
Guy Dawkins
Barony of Ayreton
Kingdom of the Middle
This whole mad slide into hell started when we let California have it's own pizza.
Honor virtutis praemium
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mka: David Valenta
Barony of Ayreton
Kingdom of the Middle
This whole mad slide into hell started when we let California have it's own pizza.
Honor virtutis praemium
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mka: David Valenta
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mike mercier
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Wilmot, I have tried it and find it just isn't realistic. Nothing behaves like steel weapons no matter how hard you try and if someone was to attempt the same manuevers with rattan they would find them ineffective and probably kill themselves in the process. I am not going to get into silly rules and things (like kneeling) Clements has easily touched on that subject in his books, but if we didn't improve on good ideas we would still be driving around Model T's and flying in wood and fabric covered planes.
William- I woudnt call WMA a "dojo style" school. There arent the formalities and tradition like that of Asian styles. The basis is simple. Learn to fight. And if you really want to go deeper, learn to "kill". What is a Rene tournament?
I think I will just end this topic if I can. There will be no agreements on this one. Just people more pi**ed off than before they read. We all have our opinions on the subject and nothing will be solved.
William- I woudnt call WMA a "dojo style" school. There arent the formalities and tradition like that of Asian styles. The basis is simple. Learn to fight. And if you really want to go deeper, learn to "kill". What is a Rene tournament?
I think I will just end this topic if I can. There will be no agreements on this one. Just people more pi**ed off than before they read. We all have our opinions on the subject and nothing will be solved.
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Russ Mitchell
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Mike,
I went to your website, all you are wearing in the photos that I saw was a fencing mask. I don't want to pose with steel weapons. You have your own group, stay with it, just don't try to mess with mine. As I said in my last post, many of us like what the SCA does and has no time for someone coming in and saying "I'm here to fix what you do even though I know much about it". If you want a idea of how this group has evolved go to the West kingdom History site (We gave up wear fencing masks in 1968)
Ronald
I went to your website, all you are wearing in the photos that I saw was a fencing mask. I don't want to pose with steel weapons. You have your own group, stay with it, just don't try to mess with mine. As I said in my last post, many of us like what the SCA does and has no time for someone coming in and saying "I'm here to fix what you do even though I know much about it". If you want a idea of how this group has evolved go to the West kingdom History site (We gave up wear fencing masks in 1968)
Ronald
Last edited by wilmot on Fri Sep 16, 2005 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Morgan
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Frankly, Mike... I think this thread is likly a microcosm of that world with which you've been interacting. Your "voice" was heard by folks both in and out of the SCA...and it's reasonable to assume you probalby come of to a degree the same way in person. I don't think you've REALLY pissed anyone off. But you did get strong people with strong personalities giving you strong opinions.
So if you want to improve, take that for what it's worth. There are LOTS of SCA people who want to do both. But nobody wants to be told they're idiots who do things badly to start off. The SCA has been successful for longer than MANY MANY folks on this board have been alive. Hard to argue with success to SOME degree. Not everyone does it because of the realism, they do it for FUN.
But I'd personally listen to someone I've talked to in person who shows they're at least a LITTLE willing to do MY thing rather than someone who seems to just be showing up my my group's practice hoping to get people to go to his practice. I've seen Russ Mitchell in SCA armour (not recently enough but hey, I've seen it) and someone like Bob Charron has shown he knows a thing or two about what we do. Respect has to be earned, it can't just be assumed.
You're right...steel acts differently than rattan. And?
So if you want to improve, take that for what it's worth. There are LOTS of SCA people who want to do both. But nobody wants to be told they're idiots who do things badly to start off. The SCA has been successful for longer than MANY MANY folks on this board have been alive. Hard to argue with success to SOME degree. Not everyone does it because of the realism, they do it for FUN.
But I'd personally listen to someone I've talked to in person who shows they're at least a LITTLE willing to do MY thing rather than someone who seems to just be showing up my my group's practice hoping to get people to go to his practice. I've seen Russ Mitchell in SCA armour (not recently enough but hey, I've seen it) and someone like Bob Charron has shown he knows a thing or two about what we do. Respect has to be earned, it can't just be assumed.
You're right...steel acts differently than rattan. And?
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Blaine de Navarre
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How many of you have experimented with steel fighting? What were the outcomes?
Only choreographed, no actual competitive fighting. Looks like fun, though.
Why do I get such a negative response from the local SCA members when I try to promote my school and the amazing things you can learn from western martial arts?
I can think of several possible reasons:
A) You may just have gotten unlucky in the particular people you've met. Either the greatest strength or greatest weakness of the SCA (depending on who you ask) is trying to be all things to all people. There is a range of attitudes from very concerned with authenticity, like some of the SCAers on this list, down to throw a t-tunic over yer jeans, drink beer, and swing a stick, with the majority falling on a bell-curve between the two extremes, like me. Keep asking around, and you'll probably find some more receptive people.
B) Many in the SCA have the mistaken idea that NO techniques from WMA are applicable to fighting within our rules. This is based on the undisputable fact that SOME period techniques definitely don't work with our style. For instance, if you look at German longsword, SCA rules favor blossefechten (sp?) techniques over harnesfechten even though we are wearing armor. It will take a critical mass of people working on incorporating WMA into SCA fighting before the majority will believe it's possible.
C) I don't know if this applies to you in particular or not, but many WMA people have a very low opinion of the SCA, and it shows. Remember that what we are doing, although different, is also a martial art that many people have worked just as hard as you have to get good at. If you approach us with the same respect you'd approach, say, a kendo group, with the honest intenet of finding out the similarities and differences in the 2 styles, you'll likely get a friendlier reception.
I think the big question I have after watching a lot of SCA fighter practices is this. If the main idea of practice is learning to fight, why are the individual bouts so short. Also, why not "rhino hide" during the practices to get the most out of it? I have not seen very many skilled fighters probably because they only practice for maybe 1/2 hour every week.
There is a huge range of different types of practices in the SCA, ranging from structrued training led by a knight or other senior fighter to practices like the one you've described, and a lot of others. Spread yourself around a little and you'll see.
Blaine de Navarre
in temperantiam temeritas
in vapulationem veritas
in temperantiam temeritas
in vapulationem veritas
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morristh
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Re: my thoughts on the SCA and fighting. Any comments?
mike mercier wrote:
I have a few questions maybe some of you can help me with.
How many of you have experimented with steel fighting? What were the outcomes?
After I quit playing in the SCA back in 91, I tried live steel for a bit. There were a few of us that gave it a shot. Nothing formalized like fiore or such, just SCA or former SCA guys that wanted to "ratchet it up a notch" Lasted maybe 3 months or so. First, after that time it was more a matter of luck or minor mistakes as to who won--there are three of us after all. And THAT was I thik a major contributer to its death. There are to this day very few live steelers on this end of the US of A. Second, we did learn to pull or blows in a fashion, and this felt "fake" every bit as the rap shot did. So in the end we quit.
Why do I get such a negative response from the local SCA members when I try to promote my school and the amazing things you can learn from western martial arts?
I think others have addressed this. Attitude is probably the biggest reason I would suspect. Many SCAdians have had a bad experience with the LH crowd, so WMA are the same thing right
.I think the big question I have after watching a lot of SCA fighter practices is this. If the main idea of practice is learning to fight, why are the individual bouts so short. Also, why not "rhino hide" during the practices to get the most out of it? I have not seen very many skilled fighters probably becuase they only practice for maybe 1/2 hour every week.
Kind of depends on what your doing. Many a fighter practice I have gone to consisted of just calling blows and continuing the fighting. Its important to aknowledge the blows, but not always to act them out. This isnt so much a rhino thing, but keeping the flow going. Pretending to be a rhinos not a good thing
Hope this helps a tad
Tim
Having looked through your equipment list, you are either going way slow, just dancing around or pulling the blows alot. While this might be fun for some it doesn't get even close to real combat. I realize there are differences to sca vs real but do you really want a 6"6' 350# guy hitting you with a real sword? Even in real armour? Poop happens and odds are against it that some one is gonna get hurt.
Now if i had NO fighting experience, sca or otherwise, your stuff might have an apeal, but going to sca practices to find new people you want to charge money so they can dance around with a real sword when they are used to smacking folks for real with a fake sword seems like a tough sell. BUT good luck. Are you in Omaha or Lincoln? There are fairly active groups in both citys and some are willing to commute.
Now if i had NO fighting experience, sca or otherwise, your stuff might have an apeal, but going to sca practices to find new people you want to charge money so they can dance around with a real sword when they are used to smacking folks for real with a fake sword seems like a tough sell. BUT good luck. Are you in Omaha or Lincoln? There are fairly active groups in both citys and some are willing to commute.
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SirAngus
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I am a knight in the SCA and I run a WMA fiore based school. I have also been very successful in steel tournaments in the US and Europe.
Honestly, the principles of fiore unarmoured longsword can be applied to sca longsword combat. It's core principles can be applied to all combat. No rattan does not behave like steel but I think that any good steel practitioner should be able to make the simple corrections to what they do to make them work.
Most of Fiore's giocco longa plays are easily done or addapted to sca combat. The most important thing to remember is that the plays in Fiore are what to do after your perfect swordsmanship has not worked and you have ended up in a neutral position. I think many WMA practitioners forget that part and think of WMA as only the plays.
Honestly, the principles of fiore unarmoured longsword can be applied to sca longsword combat. It's core principles can be applied to all combat. No rattan does not behave like steel but I think that any good steel practitioner should be able to make the simple corrections to what they do to make them work.
Most of Fiore's giocco longa plays are easily done or addapted to sca combat. The most important thing to remember is that the plays in Fiore are what to do after your perfect swordsmanship has not worked and you have ended up in a neutral position. I think many WMA practitioners forget that part and think of WMA as only the plays.
Jeremy
http://www.knightlyarts.com
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"As a knight it is my duty to do deeds of arms and put my body to the hazard. It is not to create my renown. That is a job for others who feel my deeds worthy."
http://www.knightlyarts.com
http://www.ija-usa.com
http://www.oneailfx.net
"As a knight it is my duty to do deeds of arms and put my body to the hazard. It is not to create my renown. That is a job for others who feel my deeds worthy."
I began fighting as a heavy, as well as a fencer, in the SCA this year, after dancing around the subject for about half a decade. I fought in a LARP for several years before that and I also had the no-head-shot-pulling-your-blows problem (when I first fought in the LARP, I had to really, really, really pull my blows cause I was knocking people over with padded weapons and giving them serious bruises, since all my practice had been with real weapons and posts etc.
I like the SCA for what it is. I'm not in it just for the fighting, but the ability to throw on armor and once or twice a year go to a major war and whoop some butt is pretty cool.
Considering I spend 90% of my time during my week learning and practicing modern warfare, I don't want to practice WMA on the weekend. I fight in the SCA cause it's full contact, and FUN!
Whacking someone at close range with a glaive buttspike to the head is funny as hell when they forgot you HAD a buttspike on your weapon........
I like the SCA for what it is. I'm not in it just for the fighting, but the ability to throw on armor and once or twice a year go to a major war and whoop some butt is pretty cool.
Considering I spend 90% of my time during my week learning and practicing modern warfare, I don't want to practice WMA on the weekend. I fight in the SCA cause it's full contact, and FUN!
Whacking someone at close range with a glaive buttspike to the head is funny as hell when they forgot you HAD a buttspike on your weapon........
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M S Anderson
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mike mercier wrote:Thanks for all the responses.
M S Anderson- I have started the Nebraska Swordfighters Guild. The website is located at www.mercierarmory.com/nsg/nsg.html We primarily focus on Fiore longsword, but I am now teaching dagger, unarmed, and arming sword. I trained with Steaphen Fick in CA, and hope to have him out for a weekend seminar for my students.
OK, cool. Good luck to you guys. If you're ever in the Hampton Roads area, look me up, we can do some sparring.
-Matt
Re: my thoughts on the SCA and fighting. Any comments?
mike mercier wrote:I think the main reason I would probably never join the SCA is because of the combat and the associated rules on fighting. Having trained in historical martial arts and now run my own school I cant imagine using anything other than steel as well.
Of those member here that are in the SCA, I have a few questions maybe some of you can help me with.
How many of you have experimented with steel fighting? What were the outcomes?
Why do I get such a negative response from the local SCA members when I try to promote my school and the amazing things you can learn from western martial arts?
I think the big question I have after watching a lot of SCA fighter practices is this. If the main idea of practice is learning to fight, why are the individual bouts so short. Also, why not "rhino hide" during the practices to get the most out of it? I have not seen very many skilled fighters probably becuase they only practice for maybe 1/2 hour every week.
Maybe this is not true for all branches, but the one locally here in NE seems to be this way.
I guess enough of my ramblings for now. Any comments?
Mike
Mike:
...I thought about reading ahead to the replies but I wanted to give you a response unencumbered by reading ahead.
in order:
a. I have not, to my recollection, ever done anything serious with live steel. I have read the rules of the Adrian Empire and come away with the feeling that half power with live steel isn't what I'm interested in for a variety of reasons. If I were ever to get into live steel it would be full plate submission fighting which is more $$ and time than I think I have available.
b. I've been to a couple of places that purported to teach "western style" martial arts (swordfighting, etc) and they looked to me to be places where wannabes went to wannabe. Whether yours is legit or not I obviously can't say, but most of the people that I've seen come anywhere near the SCA from that arena seem to be more interested in showing us why what we're doing can't possibly be as cool as what they're doing. I, in fact, do contend that quite a bit of what we do would not have been done in period, but I also have to contend right along with it that that fact doesn't matter in SCA combat. Most of what we do that wouldn't have been done is kept off the field for safety reasons which I can't argue with. One or two of the things we DO do (hush, back there in the peanut gallery) is, I think, in partial compensation for the things we CAN'T do.
c. "rhino hiding" during practices is a horrible way to build bad habits. If you were to describe more about why you think non-acknowledgement of shots would help a fighter advance, I could more easily counter your contention.
Regards,
Jonathan Blackbow
ego operor non tutela satis ut impono
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Jon Barber
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SirAngus wrote: Honestly, the principles of fiore unarmoured longsword can be applied to sca longsword combat. It's core principles can be applied to all combat. No rattan does not behave like steel but I think that any good steel practitioner should be able to make the simple corrections to what they do to make them work.
Yup (BTW, I do SCA combat , both armored - though I haven't been out in too frickin' long - and unarmored and I run a WMA practice group). The principles still apply and you can do the majority of what many treatises show on the SCA field. Fiore/Vadi, the Lichtenauer tradition authors, the Dardi authors, later backsword/broadsword manuals - they can all be adapted for SCA combat. Ask Bob Charron his thoughts on how much of Fiore can be used in the SCA sometime - if anyone should have a clue about that it's him.
SirAngus wrote: Most of Fiore's giocco longa plays are easily done or addapted to sca combat. The most important thing to remember is that the plays in Fiore are what to do after your perfect swordsmanship has not worked and you have ended up in a neutral position. I think many WMA practitioners forget that part and think of WMA as only the plays.
Without getting into a debate on the structure of the Fiore manuscripts, yes - the principles work and the plays demonstrate the principles. I know a number of respected teachers in the WMA community who are also experienced SCA combatants (even if they don't play much anymore) who feel the same way.
And SCA combat is *cool*. No two ways about it. I like every form of SCA combat I've done. Is it different than trying to recreate what's shown in the treatises? Yes. So? Different is good; any decent WMA school uses a variety of training methods to try and cover every aspect. ANything where you get to hit the other guy full-force and unscripted is going to teach you a lot, not to mention being FUN.
Jon Barber
Tattershall School of Defense
Steve -SoFC- wrote:Read the wikipedia article.
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Morgan
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Just wanted to throw a point out about rhino hiding at practice...
At 95%+ of the practices I attend (amazingly close to 100%, but I digress) nobody acts out deaths. We often don't "take" arm shots and leg shots, but simply acknowlege that they happened. We also acknowlege good "kill" shots, but continue fighting. Sometimes after a "kill" there is a 3 second lull while we reset to just outside of range to make the action more realistic. I've never been in a tourney where "lay on" was called WHILE I was in range to start the fight initially.
If the lack of acting out blows is what you mean by "rhino hiding" then we do it all the time. If simply ignoring good shots is what you mean, we never do it. The reason you don't IGNORE good shots is that you're not allowing your partner a chance to train. When you hit me with something, you NEED to know if it was good or not. If it's not good, how can you improve if you don't KNOW it's not good and why? If it's good enough, how can you KNOW you don't have to hit harder or through the target or whatever if I don't tell you? Your point about not STOPPING the fighting constantly every time a blow lands is conceeded. People who do that are likely wasting time. And there's a lot of folks who go to "practice" to put on armour, fight a bit, and bullshit a lot. But those of us who TRAIN at practice don't do so.
At 95%+ of the practices I attend (amazingly close to 100%, but I digress) nobody acts out deaths. We often don't "take" arm shots and leg shots, but simply acknowlege that they happened. We also acknowlege good "kill" shots, but continue fighting. Sometimes after a "kill" there is a 3 second lull while we reset to just outside of range to make the action more realistic. I've never been in a tourney where "lay on" was called WHILE I was in range to start the fight initially.
If the lack of acting out blows is what you mean by "rhino hiding" then we do it all the time. If simply ignoring good shots is what you mean, we never do it. The reason you don't IGNORE good shots is that you're not allowing your partner a chance to train. When you hit me with something, you NEED to know if it was good or not. If it's not good, how can you improve if you don't KNOW it's not good and why? If it's good enough, how can you KNOW you don't have to hit harder or through the target or whatever if I don't tell you? Your point about not STOPPING the fighting constantly every time a blow lands is conceeded. People who do that are likely wasting time. And there's a lot of folks who go to "practice" to put on armour, fight a bit, and bullshit a lot. But those of us who TRAIN at practice don't do so.