Review: Historic Enterprises Pourpoint

[Jehan de Pelham]

This is long overdue, for which I beg the forgiveness of Gwen Nowrick of Black Swan Designs (Historic Enterprises). I had promised a review just before I went to Fort Irwin for forty days and forty nights and just now have I had the opportunity to try it out and report my pleasure with its construction.

What Is It?

To be short, it is a foundation garment meant to point leg harness to. It replaces the "leg belt" which is a common part of SCA and re-enactor harness.

A photograph of the pourpoint is available here at Mandrake Armoury's website: http://www.mandrakearmory.com/Merchant2 ... ory_Code=A

The pourpoint itself is a vest-like garment, made of a fustian (linen/cotton blend) weave shell and linen inner lining. It is generously cut around the neck and armholes for freedom of movement. Closure is accomplished by ties; there are six pairs of stoutly finished point holes up the front. Adjustment for variations in body girth just above the hips is allowed by a lace closure at the back which runs upward for about a foot through fourteen pairs of point holes. The garment is made of panels which tighten the garment just above the points of the hips, and at the bottom edge of the garment on each side above the cuisse there are three rows of holes, seven wide with three pointing laces for each side, which offers great versatility for a variety of pointing tabs. Four leather squares, with four holes punched in them in such a way that the pointing laces can pass through them, are provided. These assist in re-inforcing the garment against the stress of the pointing laces under load of leg harness.

Review of Construction:

Gwen doesn't offer up poor product, and this garment is strongly built. The material is a sturdy cotton twill (I might be wrong) in a buff color which should wear well. The pointing laces are of two different kinds, a lighter duty cord made of white braided material and a heavier duty cord made of brown and tan braided material. The tips of the lighter duty cords are akin to the points that are offered with Historic Enterprises Chausses, that is to say the tips are dipped in some material which stiffens them and makes them easier to push through pointing holes. The tips of the heavier duty points are sheathed in plastic like shoelaces, a modern convenience but one which could be covered by brass points. All seams are internal to the garment.

Review of Appearance:

The garment appears authentic. There are very few drawings of pourpoints and this garment imitates the only appearance I know of it. The color is a neutral earth tone and the materials are natural, not man-made. It lets the wearer be half armored and not look unfinished--I could easily imagine someone wearing this over a shirt with a set of leg harness tied to it and wandering about looking quite appropriate. The abundance of ties makes for an interesting complexity and adds visual excitement.

Review of Functionality:

The purpose of the garment is to serve as a foundation garment for leg harness. The Historic Enterprises pourpoint does what it is intended to do, distributing the weight of the leg harness between hips and shoulders in about a 75/25 ratio mostly on the hips, though some weight is carried on the shoulders. The wearer has considerable latitude in determining the exact fit and loading via adjustment of the three points provided per cuisse.

Other Considerations:

I am a proponent of the "underwear out" school of thought as regards harness. That is to say, once one has girded one's soft bits behind a peice of protective gear, everything else ought to be replica medieval clothing. I wear linen braies, linen or wool chausses, a light linen shirt, this pourpoint, a linen arming cote, and then my haubergeon, breastplate, and arm and leg harness. I feel that this adds depth and authenticity to the experience and absolutely avoids any "non-period" moments getting into and out of armor--ie: no standing there in an underarmour t-shirt drinking a bottle of Gatorade.

The Historic Enterprises pourpoint could easily serve as a garment which could hold the required kidney protection for SCA heavy weapons activities: all it would take is the application of a pair of pockets to hold plates to meet the requirement. It is also strong enough to point spaulders to through an overgarment, provided the spaulders are not monstrously heavy. I personally prefer a linen arming cote for the arm harness and spaulders, which are in my case pointed through the mail haubergeon.

This garment is offered at Mandrake Armouries for $95.00 plus $1.00 S/H. I esteem the garment worth the price to anyone desiring a functional and authentic alternative to the leg belt.

John McFarlin
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

[Black Swan Designs]

Thanks for the review, John! Rod really likes his pourpoint as well.

Just a few clarifications-

The material is a sturdy cotton twill (I might be wrong)
The pourpoints are actually made of a modern fustian fabric- linen warp and cotton weft which gives it a subtle two-tone appearance. It is fully lined with our signature oatmeal linen.

The pointing laces are of two different kinds, a lighter duty cord made of white braided material and a heavier duty cord made of brown and tan braided material.
I've had laces specially made for these, so all of the laces on the current pourpoints are the same off-white cotton material.


The tips of the lighter duty cords are...dipped in some material which stiffens them. The tips of the heavier duty points are sheathed in plastic like shoelaces
All points now have the plastic shoelace points. The glue used in the old laces had a tendency to soften up and get mushy with wear, making them difficult to get through the holes. The shoelace tips will last the life of the lace with no deterioration. I switched over because folks were complaining about the other type of tip.


pourpoint could easily serve as a garment which could hold the required kidney protection for SCA heavy weapons activities: all it would take is the application of a pair of pockets to hold plates to meet the requirement.
Rod actually talked to me about this at Pennsic, and we'll be offering them with this option as soon as we get the size and placement of the pockets sorted.

Gwen

[Murdock]

I like mine too

It works better than any belt, and it looks great


bottom line

[Gethin]

pourpoint could easily serve as a garment which could hold the required kidney protection for SCA heavy weapons activities: all it would take is the application of a pair of pockets to hold plates to meet the requirement.
Gwen

Another possibility is to point the kidney protection. I am planning on trying this idea to see how it works.

[Konstantin the Red]

Or perhaps three pockets: a pocket port and starboard, either one overlapping by perhaps 3/4" a central plate over the spinal column there and shaped to the spine's valley for a closer fit to the small of the back. I like the idea of very complete protection of the backbone, even to the point of putting multiple additional plates overlapping up the rest of the spine. I've been alarmed at seeing our fellow fighters with soft torso armor getting let down in the spine-protection department from those occasional freak occurrences that people forget to design for.

If you go for this, expect to make it even more comprehensive for those Kingdoms whose Armor Standards mandate a body-bracelet type of kidney belt -- again, for the soft-torso crowd -- plate pockets all the way around. Somebody who's already got a breastplate already meets that standard.

For the sport-armor crowd: accommodation for a Camelback (tm)! Uh oh, here come the tomatoes -- c'mon, guys, throw lettuce and bottles of Paul Newman salad dressing too!

Yep, the Gatorade (tm) gets discreetly swigged from period containers. The stuff still comes in powdered form, right?

[Jehan de Pelham]

Gwen, I LIKE the two-tone cords, they look more interesting. Glad I got one of the old models.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

[Black Swan Designs]

Hi John-

Yes, I liked the 2 tone as well, they just didn't hold up as well as I wanted them to over the long term.

I do like the look of them though, and am trying to find someone who can make 2 colour laces for me in a natural fibre (either cotton or preferably, linen). Arming points are the one place I have found definative evidence for multi colouring, so I'd like to be able to offer them.

I'm working on it!

Gwen

[Rod'sWife]

"This garment is offered at Mandrake Armouries for $95.00 plus $1.00 S/H. "

Zoinks! - If we only charged you $1 for shipping please dont tell me. Actually, it SHOULD be around $4 for shipping if you are in the US or use and APO.

[Jehan de Pelham]

Whoops, musta misread the copy on the page. The shipping weight is one pound.

Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

[Thorbjorn]

This is definately cooler than ALICE webbing. This is on my list of 'repalcement' gear. I figure after using a leg harness belt for a bit I'll really appreciate this better.

As far as the arming point cording goes, there are several ways to weave them. I plan on making my own using a trollen tablet and 2 or 4 colors of flaxen yarn. It makes a nice spiral weave that is VERY strong.

[Tristan vom Schwarzwald]

Hi John-

Yes, I liked the 2 tone as well, they just didn't hold up as well as I wanted them to over the long term.

I do like the look of them though, and am trying to find someone who can make 2 colour laces for me in a natural fibre (either cotton or preferably, linen). Arming points are the one place I have found definative evidence for multi colouring, so I'd like to be able to offer them.

I'm working on it!

Gwen

Gwen, what if someone has a 44" chest but, say, has a 35-36" waist. Given that fit is important, what size would good to order?

[Black Swan Designs]

what if someone has a 44" chest but, say, has a 35-36" waist

Large is sized for a 44" chest and 38" waist, so a stock size might be a bit too big for you. You could either order a custom size (+$10 for custom sizing, order through Mandrake) or try the Large and see if you can get the waist tight enough.

You want the upper body long enough and the waist tight enough so 90% of the weight of the leg harness is borne by the hip area of the pourpoint.

Gwen

[Pietro da San Tebaldo]

I must add my two pence here as well. The Black Swan pourpoint was my big purchase this year at Pennsic. It really changed how my harness 'floated' on me and, though I was building my own pourpoint, I rationalized the decision to pay the asking price by telling myself that I was buying the product of someone else's four stages of prototyping, ranging from the "Nice Idea But Needs Major Work" Alpha model to the "All Ready For Prime Time" finished product.

My only issue is with the machined eyelets - they 'unzipped' within days. I handsewed the replacements around the campfire over a couple of evenings, and also sewed a badge to the breast of the vest to show off a bit.

Thanks for this bit of kit - looks wonderful, fits beautifully, works great.

[Black Swan Designs]

the machined eyelets - they 'unzipped' within days

Hmmmm. That warrants a followed by a followed by a .

I apologize for the eyelets. We're had some issues with the eyelet guy that we've addressed. We thought we got all the bad eyelets before they hit the shelves, and I'm sorry to hear that some got by us.

I stand 100% behind everything we build, so if anyone buys a pourpoint from Rod and you have problems with the eyelets, just let Gretchen or me know and I will make good on them at no cost to you. I'll either replace the garment, or pay shipping to get it back to me to repair.

Pietro, since you've already put the time in to repair the problem, please email me and I'll send you your choice of either a coif or a pair of 14th C. braies to compensate you for your time.

gwen@historicenterprises.com

Gwen

[David Teague]

Howdy Lads,

Gwen was nice enough to make me a LH version of one last year , Ya know the one meant to be worn with a Jack to keep up my hose....

I love it.

I have had nothing but the best results with anything I've ever gotten from Gwen or Jeff over the years. (We are taking matchlocks, maille, clothes, and sundries here)

If you pick up one of these to keep up your legs I'm sure you will be happy.

Really.

Cheers,

David Teague

[Gwydion Caithnes]

Gonna have to grab one of these. I've hated the belt for years, but never got around to thinking about how to address it.

Gwen - one question: On my gambeson (one of my own design/manufacture, not yours), I tend to put the leather arming point tabs on the inside, instead of outside. I find that method reinforces the fabric better - i.e. the cords don't pull on the fabric as much as the leather, decreasing wear and tear. Your comments?

[Black Swan Designs]

I tend to put the leather arming point tabs on the inside, instead of outside. I find that method reinforces the fabric better - i.e. the cords don't pull on the fabric as much as the leather, decreasing wear and tear. Your comments?

Ah, you guys know I always have an opinion!

Seriously, I think the answer is a cross between personal preference and application.

I think if your armour is suspended in any way (i.e. it hangs from the lacing point rather than being tied flat to the foundation garment) or very heavy, the best way I've found to reinforce the area is to use 4 holes instead of 2, putting the leather tab on the *outside* of the fabric and thread the point through the 4 holes. If you look at the way Rod is wearing his in the image on the Mandrake site you'll see what I mean. There's a historical precedence for this lacing setup as this is the way King Syphax's arming doublet is set up. ("An Italian arming doublet of 1435-40", Toby Capwell, Waffen und Kostumekunde, 2002). I set up the pourpoints to use 4 holes because I felt the legs needed extra support due to the type of combat you guys use. The 3rd pair in each set give you up and down adjustability to compensate for leg harness fit and body shape.

Not the same garment but the same use in a related military garment, Dominic has his arming doublet set up to use 6 holes and no leather at all to carry his leg harness (on the right)


That may be overkill, but since he uses the bottom pair of holes in the cuisse matrix he has holes to spare. As you can see, he crosses the laces to further distribute the stress.

Steve (on the left) uses the cuisse matrix differently. He points his maille skirt through the top holes, and hangs his legs from the bottom 4, much the same way Rod does.

Both guys use multiple pairs of holes to suspend their arm and shoulder defenses.

Jeffrey has a custom fitted arming doublet and custom legs. As you can see from the following picture, he points through 2 holes with no leather reinforce:
[img]http://www.historicenterprises.com/misc/arming.jpg[/img]

Jeff has no trouble with tearout, even when he's fallen off his horse jousting a few times. The last time he fell he burst the side seam of his arming doublet from the impact, but there was absolutely no damage to the point holes.

Something we discovered about putting leather reinforces was that the leather tends to "bite" or rub uncomfortably if they're on the inside. On the shoulder, the weight of the arm harness drives the tab into what is usually a boney spot. In the hip area, the peplum is pulled in tight like a girdle to support the leg harness and that pressure tends to make the leather bite in. I think Bob Reed had this problem with an arming doublet I made him years ago. IIRC, he's much happer with the new version that doesn't require leathers on the inside.

Hope that helps!

Gwen

[Klaus the Red]

Gwen, do Jeff's demigreaves fasten over pins in the greaves? I've long had a pet theory that if properly strapped and pinned to full greaves, leg harness should exert very little drag on the arming coat itself since its weight will be distributed amongst all the strapping/attachment points along the leg, and partly transferred down onto the greaves as well... instead of simply swinging from the waist area like most crappy SCA belted legs are wont to. (Having never had decent leg harness myself, it's still just a theory to me.)

I've got my own next-generation arming coat in the works, and I can't wait to play with the leg arrangement... it'll be a while before it's ready for the field because I'm quilting it entirely by hand... have I mentioned that I'm insane?

Klaus

[Black Swan Designs]

do Jeff's demigreaves fasten over pins in the greaves?

Yes. Your theory is correct, some of the weight of the cuisse is borne by the greaves, some by the straps and the rest by the arming doublet. The conventional attachement "swinging from the waist area" you refer to is one of the reasons Rod and I opted to offer the leather reinforcement tabs.

Rod is also recommending the leg harness be suspended by more than one set of points. If you look closely at the photo of him in his pourpoint on the front of their site, you'll see that he had his legs set up to suspend from the usual single set of points. By adding 2 more holes to the outside of the existing holes in the leather suspension tabs, he was able to use 2 of the 3 sets of eyelets in the pourpoints cuisse hole matrix. Rod said he noticed the difference in fit and function immediately; the legs had less of a tendency to swing or rotate, and they felt much more secure on his leg.

Rod and Gretchen are off to the Known World Rattan and Costume Symposium this weekend, but I'll point him to this thread for comments.

Gwen

[Anjouleme]

I just wanted to add my 2 cents regarding the Historic Enterprises pourpoint. I purchased one from Mandrake in early December. I had some concerns as my proportions are somewhat different (ok they're REALLY different) than most men, and I know fit is important. Roderick assured me that the key to the garment is getting the fit right around the waist and hips. I purchased a large, and even though it is somewhat loose in the chest, it functions perfectly for holding my leg harness. It should be noted that I'm hanging spring steel legs from the points, which is what I purchased the pourpoint specifically for. Roderick also recommended haging the legs each from two arming points (Front and side-ish). I am not used to this as I've always hung my legs from one point on a kidney belt. But the two points function to place and keep the leg harness right where it should be. There is no awkward turning or twisting anymore. Simply lovely. I'll never go back if I can avoid it.

I just wanted Gwen and others out there to know that this is a great garment, even for female fighters!

[Josh W]

I want to chime in here, too, as I got a Historic Enterprises arming doublet for Christmas and have since gotten to fight (SCA) in it twice.

Like Jeff's, my leg harness is largely self-supporting; the cuisses rest of the greave-pins, and the greaves rest on the sabatons. It's a very comfortable arrangement. The points on the arming doublet are almost redundant.

My biggest issue with my old doublet was pauldron attachment. This doublet corrects all the problems I had, and makes wearing my plate harness more comfortable than it ever was before.

I did manage to tear a seam under the left arm while I was performing a cartwheel at 12th night, but that was my own fault; I think I tied the end of the sleeve too tightly and it could not slide down my wrist under the vambrace as the one on the right did, and so it ripped the seam a bit. It'll be a quick fix, though. Overall, I am deliriously thrilled with this garment.

[Black Swan Designs]

I did manage to tear a seam under the left arm while I was performing a cartwheel at 12th night

Dare I ask why you were performing a cartwheel in armour, in your harness???

Was it the side seam that popped, or the armhole seam? I ask because when Jeff was unhorsed in Scotland he popped the seam between the peplum and body.

It's informational to know what stress causes what seam to give.

Gwen

[Aaron]

Dare I ask why you were performing a cartwheel in armour, in your harness???

I bet because it's fun AND historically correct AND it shocks people to no end! I can't wait to get up the point where I can do that!

Talk about shock and awe factor at SCA tournaments when you cartwheel out on to the field in full War of the Roses plate....

Of course, I need to work on learning to do cartwheels without armour first...


-Aaron

[Josh W]

I do the cartwheel to change the minds of people who think I can't be nimble in "all that metal".

It was the armhole seam, Gwen. And I acknowledge that it was my fault; I had the cuff-lace too tight, and pulled too far down my wrist. If I had left it alone like the one on the right arm, it would have been fine. The doublet is perfect.


I won't let it happen again.

[Alcyoneus]

I did manage to tear a seam under the left arm while I was performing a cartwheel at 12th night

Dare I ask why you were performing a cartwheel in armour, in your harness???

Gwen

Because he can?

Also, there was a slight rip in the waist reinforce( opposite side from the armpit rip.. It was the stitching that gave way, just enough for me to stick my finger in it.

You should post the pics, Josh. They are quite funny.