[SCA] greatsword hilt (pics)

Destichado · Post by **Destichado** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 8:58 pm

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v696/Destichado/Rattan_Swordhilt_Design.jpg[/img]

With the photos, I'm thinking this should be *fairly* self explanitory. Sorry about the pool cues, I didn't have rattan handy.

The idea of course is to use two pieces of rattan for the blade and the cross, without resorting to the ugly and (imho) clumsy/unstable split-rattan hilts, and to have thrusting tips on the cross to mix it up a little better in close than greatswords are wont to do. I found nothing in the Marshal's Handbook against the idea. Haven't looked in the Middle Kingdom booklet since I've let my membership slip, but I guess I really ought to if I ever want to use it at a practice.

So, what say ye? Has anyone seen something similar? I can think of no problems with the design, but does anyone see something I've missed? What would you think of seeing something similar on the field?

Of course I'll clean it up and finish it (I welded it together this afternoon), but only if it's legal and it can do what I want it to. :lol:

If not, right now I'm only out 8" of 1 1/4" pipe and a piece of rusty barstock.

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:24 pm

I would advise closly reading your marshals handbook as it concerns "Butt Spikes" which may or may not be allowed on great-swords in your kingdom. Please note that there are no contingincies for "Quillion Spikes" on greatswords or any other weapon that I can think of. As a minimum I would make sure the quilion thrusting tips are a full 2" in diameter and that you had the permission of your opponent, local marshal and preferably kingdom marshal as it relates to the use of "experimental weapons".

Don't get me wrong. I think that you have a fine experimental idea, (not the prettiest but functional) and within the spirit of the law but I would be very cautious about the amount of power that could be generated with a 2 handed thrust that close to the center of mass and without the added tendency of rattan to buckle under thrusts.

I DEFINETLY don't think your quilion construction is safe for a Mortschlag (spelling) where you flip the sword, hold the edge and strike your opponent with the quillions like you would with a pole-axe.

...and if you do get the permision of your kingdom marshal as it relates to experimental weapons, make 2. People are unlikely to want to fight against something like that unless they can play with it also.

Good luck,
Sean

Destichado · Post by **Destichado** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 9:37 pm

I wasn't even considering the Mortschlag. :wink:

However, I've seen split-rattan greatswords with quillion spikes here in the Middle, Sooooooo...

I'd be happy to make two.

critter · Post by **critter** » Tue Oct 04, 2005 10:58 pm

ohh I want one!!!!!

Asbjorn Johansen · Post by **Asbjorn Johansen** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 8:18 am

How much does it weigh?

Destichado · Post by **Destichado** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:16 am

A little over two pounds. When finished I suspect it'll be a little under.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:29 am

Any historical evidence for Greatswords having spikes on the quillons OTHER THAN greatswords used for judicial combat?

If not, then why put one on?

Destichado · Post by **Destichado** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:47 am

a) Yup there is, and b) There's no other way to hit people with them in this sport.

And why all of a sudden is evidence from judicial combat not sufficient provenence?

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 11:54 am

InsaneIrish wrote:Any historical evidence for Greatswords having spikes on the quillons OTHER THAN greatswords used for judicial combat?

If not, then why put one on?

Perhaps to make it safe to strike an opponent with one in a manner that they would have been struck with in period combat?

Yes a blunt quilion to an unarmored face is not likely to be instantly fatal but neither is an stout blow with and edged sword to an iron helm. Either of them will however make you and unhappy camper if done repeatedly and in quick succession.

Personally I have never seen split rattan quillions with thrusting tips before. I would wory about the tape holding the two half coming undone resulting in 2 pieces of "D" shaped wood 5/8" thick coming towards my bar-grill. However some kingdoms use split rattan heads on pole arms which I assume is more likely to suffer the same failure criteria so...

just my rambling thoughts,
Sean

white mountain armoury · Wed Oct 05, 2005 12:55 pm

Fiore instructs on grasping a sword by the blade in order to make it and the Quillions (often flattened like a small axe head) behave more like a bec or similar weapon.

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 1:23 pm

a) Yup there is, and b) There's no other way to hit people with them in this sport.

My thopugh has always been to make them out of cast rubber, ala the rathbone heads.

-+G

Destichado · Post by **Destichado** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 3:17 pm

I was thinking the same thing, but I can't do that, and they'd still be "thrusting tips" -just constructed integraly. :wink:

I was also wondering if it might not be possible to make a cross-hilt like the one I made out of PVC or Siloflex, weld the plastic and make something that's legal to do the mortschlag with.

critter · Post by **critter** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 7:42 pm

I tried to make a rattam cored siloflex one but got very frustrated and gave up on it it just wasn't big enough.

Theodore · Post by **Theodore** » Wed Oct 05, 2005 10:18 pm

I like the idea of the cast rubber heads for the quillions.

I have thought about designing a greatsword backwards to count as a pole weapon in SCA jargon. The quillions as warhammer type heads, the butt cap as a thrusting tip, the point of the blade as a butt spike, and the blade as an edged polearm haft. Kind of a two ended weapon, held by the blade it would be a legal two-handed hammer, held by the grip a greatsword.

rymic · Post by **rymic** » Thu Oct 06, 2005 10:26 am

It looks very awkward and even more ahistorical with the quillons not being in line with the "blade". It seems if you were performing a mortschlag that it would be difficult to track it correctly because of the weight being offset especially trying to do this while grasping something round i.e. with no edges.
That being said it looks like it could work if the quillons broken in to two parts on either side of the "blade".

Destichado · Post by **Destichado** » Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:37 pm

Gee, thanks. :roll:

I already thought of that, drew up the plans and rejected it because it would be unstable and hard use would lead to destruction of the rattan.

The ideal is a) stability and rigidity b) ease of construction and c) balance -this -thus far- meets all three.
Balance here is, of course, asymetrical -that's why the pipes were cut before they were welded, to bring the two pieces of rattan into actual physical contact and minimize the mass off the centerline on that side, and that's also you see the large heavy ring on the opposing side. It's not just for hand protection -otherwise I would have had two. Working with rattan is somewhat more restrictive that building wooden wasters.

And remember, there can be no mortschlag with steel in the hilt. Tracking in that dimension is a non-issue. :wink:

rymic · Post by **rymic** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 3:51 pm

Destichado wrote:. Working with rattan is somewhat more restrictive that building wooden wasters.
:

Exactly why I would never dream of using rattan or wood for that matter.

I would like to point out that you did say "I can think of no problems with the design, but does anyone see something I've missed?" So the sarcastic reply seems unnecessary and rude.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 4:02 pm

I'd think that a 3-4" seat tube on either side of the main tube would be plenty stable. This is just an opinion, and not a critisizm or suggestion that you try it.

Destichado · Post by **Destichado** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:41 pm

In one sense, I agree. It would be very rigid, yes. In fact, I drew this up when I first came up with the idea.
<a href="http://home.armourarchive.org/members/dstchdo/Hilt%20Components.bmp" target=_new><img src="http://home.armourarchive.org/members/dstchdo/Hilt%20Components.bmp" width=389 height=328"></a>
Click the Pic

However, after thinking a little further, my concern became in keeping the rattan IN those sockets. I was worried that set screws on the ends like that would pulp the rattan, and possibly cause them to fall out. Not a problem as far as the SCA is concerned -as far as the rules care, I'd just have a shorter cross. But as far as *I* was concerned, that would be unacceptable. With this design, I have one fewer part to worry about, a ring-hilt, and more stability.

I suppose I could always try and find out... or let somebody else try it for me.

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 10:16 am

A nifty design. But... *I* have a problem with it.

It looks painfully heavy. To my understanding weight has been the primary concern with halfswording, pommel and quillion strikes, and why they have been unavailable to us in the SCA. If you do test this, please be careful, and certainly let us know how it goes.

Rymic suggests that it might be difficult to get a good solid shot because of the offset, and that may be it's saving grace. If you can only land a skipping or glancing blow... it may alleviate the weight issue by not allowing you to strike a directed blow.

Regarding your original inline design. I would expect that with some adjustment it could be made functional as well. You would need to fit the rattan fairly tightly to begin with, and honestly, with a tight enough fit, wrapping strapping tape spiraly around the tube and continuing it out the length of the rattan crossguard might be enough to hold it. Otherwise, cutting a notch in the tube on either side, would give you some grip on the rattan with the tape, again spiraly wrapping out from the tubing and down the length of the rattan. If you felt that a pin were really neccisary, if it were placed far enough down the tube it shouldn't give you much trouble either. The tubing is going to keep the rattan from splaying out. Again, all of this assumes that you've got a snug enough fit into the tube that you hammer it in for the last little bit.

It is very clear that you have put a good deal of thought into this, and while concerned with some details, I am generaly pretty darn impressed with your efforts.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 9:11 am

Well... since they don't take a lot of force PULLING on them, why not just strapping tape them in? SURE they'd eventually come out...but if they're set in several inches, snug, and taped in well, they wouldn't come out OFTEN, and they'd fix in seconds for a temp-fix during an event.

Destichado wrote:In one sense, I agree. It would be very rigid, yes. In fact, I drew this up when I first came up with the idea.
However, after thinking a little further, my concern became in keeping the rattan IN those sockets. I was worried that set screws on the ends like that would pulp the rattan, and possibly cause them to fall out. Not a problem as far as the SCA is concerned -as far as the rules care, I'd just have a shorter cross. But as far as *I* was concerned, that would be unacceptable. With this design, I have one fewer part to worry about, a ring-hilt, and more stability.

Destichado · Post by **Destichado** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 11:52 am

Well... maybe I was over-thinking this? :lol:

Geeeez. If I wind up making matched pairs of BOTH of these things... You know how much rattan I'll be using??? Ack!

Maybe I'll make some, finish them up nice and sell them for cheap. Let you guys worry about the rattan and the local marshals.

freiman the minstrel · Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:08 pm

Well, if you made two of them...

I am pretty sure that I could talk a friend of mine into playing with one for an afternoon or so, strictly for experimentation. Since they are not approved weapons, It would definitely have to be completely independant from any sort of hobby that I might have. Especially independant from any organization that had three letter acronymic names that began with a S and ended with an A, with a C in the middle. Just two guys playing in the yard, dontyaknow.

I'd be willing to post after action reports to any internet bulleting boards (within reason) that you might want me too. Either photos or hospital reports, whichever seemed appropriate.

I would love to play with them, just to figure out what they worked like. I can get my own rattan. Could you make the in line ones? I can sand rattan down with a belt sander to make it fit very tightly into the holes. I think that there are probably adhesives that would bind tightly fitting rattan into sockets, in addition to fiber tape.

I'd test them, with somebody who might be interested in the results. How much would you need to make them, and ship them to a post office box? I would be interested in testing both the in-lines and the offsets.

How about a price that assumes I sent really, really good photos of the collection of two handed swords at the castle in Nurenburg?

freiman

Destichado · Post by **Destichado** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 1:34 pm

Woah, woah. Whoever said this wasn't approved?

Without the thusting tips, there's nothing in the world against them. With them, there's still nothing against them. :mrgreen:

-especially in a kingdom that specificly allows butt spikes. There just isn't anyting in the rules *for* them.

...that is, unless you're somewhere that butt spikes and their like are specifically prohibited.

But as for making and shipping, I never make promises or quote prices until I'm done with the project. That way, if I get it done somebody gets to pick up on a steal and be happy --and if it falls through, I'm not left with angry people left out in the rain.