elbow cop shape

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 9:45 am

So.....

I'm trying to get a pattern worked up for steel elbow cops that looks better than most of what I see. The general consensus seems to be that most elbows simply aren't dished deep enough.

I'm hoping to have a pattern that will work for say... 14th cent transitional and later with minor tweaks to the pattern.

How close is this to 'right'?

http://members.armourarchive.org/mattmaus/artelb3.jpg

Niall · Post by **Niall** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:42 am

From the pictures, the shape seems quite nice for the time period you say you are working for. Looks good.

knitebee · Post by **knitebee** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 2:29 pm

Those look excelent. The dishing you have is nice and deep allowing for great protection to the joint. Recently I've been looking at pictures of historical pieces and have noticed that there is a fair number (20-40%) that most here would balk at as not being dished enough. Do note that while some originals wheren't dished much they didn't affoer the same level of protection to the joint as nicely dished pieces do for the game we play.

Brian

Henry of Bexley · Post by **Henry of Bexley** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:51 pm

Very nice! Did you raise them or dish 'em? And if you dished 'em... any tips or tricks?

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:36 am

To me, they look like 2 pc welded cops.
I made a bunch like that a few years ago, and you can get some really nice results using that method.
Of course, it's not period, but it's a hell of a lot easier!

VvS

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Wed Oct 19, 2005 9:19 am

Vermin is right.

They are 2 piece welded cops.

Basicly I hybridized the Samuel's welded cop pattern, and Sinric's dished pattern, then added just a bit in the middle of the curve. I may post the hybrid pattern if I can permission from the aforementioned gentlemen, to do so.

Basicly, I was hoping to acheive a pattern that let me get the look of the deeply dished or even raised cops, without that much work on the metal. Part of this is laziness on my part, or speed of production. It's just a ton faster to do it this way. Part of it, is some safety concern on my part. I have dished and raised a few cops this deep, but they start to get pretty thin in the deepest areas, a concern for me. With the center weld you really don't dish them that deeply at all, there is pretty minimal stretching and thining of the steel.

Some people might argue that a weld makes a weak point in the design. I would tend to disagree. Structuraly, I personaly feel that a weld done properly can reinforce a peice. The sheild boss patern that I use is a good case in point. 16 gauge steel, and yeah, it dents, but to test it, I laid it out on the ground and wood chopped at it with a 2 handed sword. Dented heavily in the center section, but all dents stopped at the weld line.

The downside to the weld for this pattern, is that it can interfere with the articulation. In the center of the cop, the weld doesn't interfere much, it's just the last 1/4" - 1/2" along the edges that rub on the articulated lames some. A neat trick I've figured out to cut down on my grinding is to weld the outside first, then sand it off to where I'm happy, weld Most of the inside and let it cool off again, then come back and hit that last 3/4" on one side of the cop. While still nice and hot from the weld, take it over to a very smoothe anvil and lay the outside of the cop down, and hammer on the inside weld. Flattens it out pretty good and fast. I use this a lot, and rarely ever have to worry about cleaning up interior welds.

Jacob · Post by **Jacob** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 3:21 pm

There is an excellent picture showing the angle of one extent piece in TOMAR. I cut out an outside profile based on that and raised an elbow to fit it. I still have to do the articulation, though. I've never made one so pointed before. Yours looks pretty good.

arty dave · Post by **arty dave** » Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:27 am

They look great Matt, javascript:emoticon(':wink:')
Wink. Can you post some more pics, maybe from another angle, and would love to see inside at the weld coz I'd like to try this method.

Arty Dave.

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:26 am

http://members.armourarchive.org/mattmaus/artelb2.jpg
http://members.armourarchive.org/mattmaus/artelb1.jpg

Juhani · Post by **Juhani** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:20 am

Hmmm.... the angles of those cops are indeed good, but I just wonder... why have you made those creases into them and into that direction? Do you have some references for them, or did you just do them becouse of the welds which made them easy to do?

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:36 am

Juhani wrote:Hmmm.... the angles of those cops are indeed good, but I just wonder... why have you made those creases into them and into that direction? Do you have some references for them, or did you just do them becouse of the welds that made them easy to do?

Uhm.... hmmm.... darn good question that.

Honestly it's not on any 14th cent cops I've seen.

I do beleive I've seen it on a pair or maybe 2 of some much later cops, but I could be just interpreting things wrong.

Short answer.... 'cos I wanted to'. The weld has nothing do do with the crease, it actualy runs perpendicular to that crease. It could just as easly be left out all together.

Here is another one, using the same pattern pretty much, but on this one the weld line actualy follows and helps make the center crease.

http://members.armourarchive.org/mattmaus/maxelb1.jpg
http://members.armourarchive.org/mattmaus/maxelb2.jpg
http://members.armourarchive.org/mattmaus/maxelb3.jpg