If you had all the toys, would you use them?

[fiona nic shearlais]

I find the idea of doing armor in a 100% period manner to be appealing, but then again I love the speed and convenience of modern toys too...

If you could have all modern equipment you could ever want, would you use it?

Where would you draw the line?

[Jehan de Pelham]

There are times when it's aesthetically pleasing to do it the "old way."

There are times you just have to bang it out.

For a person who makes a living as an armorer, or as a craftsman of any sort, it takes banging it out to afford doing it the "old way."

Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

[Halberds]

Yes, yes and double yes.

What I find usefull is a strong young helper to bang out the rough shape.
The hard grunt work so to speak, and that is period too.

Hal

[freiman the minstrel]

I don't make that much armor. I can make my own, and some for new folks.

I do make harps and lyres. Not very well, but I do make them.

If I had the resources and tools to make them in a period manner, I would probably do it two or three times to learn something, and then go back to my power tools.

That's a philosophical decision. I want to be a craftsman, not a museum exhibit.

I can play a lute, with gut frets and friction pegs. Much more often, I play a modern guitar. It's just a better tool.

Hope that applies to the discussion.

freiman

[Rhoetus]

Of course I'd use them... I'd use them to make all the neat little jigs, stakes, hammers, etc. I could dream of.
Some things would work very well without interfering with the artistic and authentic look of a piece... I mean you could rough out a helmet with a triphammer, or even some plannishing, but for detail work? Nah, thats gotta be old fashioned or not at all.

[Patrick Sain]

In the privacy of my shop cranking out "basic items", Oh yeah.

At a show where the "old way" works much better to draw potential customers, no.

Besides, the sound of a power drill just doesn't fit, wheras sparks flying from a pedal grinding wheel or chips from a spring lathe do.

Then again.... it is amazing how an old tool can turn out to be quicker and do a better job on some pieces.

[Patrick Sain]

In the privacy of my shop cranking out "basic items", Oh yeah.

At a show where the "old way" works much better to draw potential customers, no.

Besides, the sound of a power drill just doesn't fit, wheras sparks flying from a pedal grinding wheel or chips from a spring lathe do.

Then again.... it is amazing how an old tool can turn out to be quicker and do a better job on some pieces.

[fiona nic shearlais]

Thanks for the replies. I have been plasma cutting and TIG welding a lot of stuff and then was feeling guilty, maybe. Or maybe not. Wasnt sure, ya know? Also... Someone somewhere asked about a rolling jenny for edges, good news is the one I have the use of gets laughed at by the 16 gauge stainless, so noones missing out on that one.

[Mike F]

Personally? Yes, I'd use new stuff for bulk production, but I'd rather outfit one man (me) in a period manner than 10,000 in a modern manner. I don't see anything wrong with modern, but I can't compete with India, and I like the old ways.

So, for money, absolutely, MIG, TIG, plasma cutters, CNC, dobbles, etc.

For quality? Plasma cutter's still good, but there are some shapes you can't get right with modern methods.

So long as you're making armor, you're alright in my book, so run with it!

[Minotaur]

Whats the point of ever drawing the line. If you want to get so nit picky they didnt have rolled sheets of steel or even nice tool steel hammers and files. Historic anvils are what most would call boat anchors now. Getting rid of some modern stuff and not others doesnt make something more period. It is period or it isnt, so if its not done right why bother.

some shapes you can't get right with modern methods

So where is the "quod erat demonstrandum". Talk is cheep I want proof, if you can show me that shape I would be shocked.

[Mike F]

Huh. Done. Bascinet bowls. Fabricated have a tangent line coming from the bowl to make the skirt, whereas real examples have a curve that blends into a slightly curved back.

Hourglass gauntlets have a slight outward dish when fabricated, but a slight inward dish when raised, which is the authentic direction.

The compound curves in greaves are virtually impossible to get right with dishing and welding. Even with raising is hard, but the curves come out better raised.

Ditto with late 14th century arm harnesses and cuisses. They're not flat gutters like most people make, they're tulip shaped to a greater or lesser extent. This is virually impossible with plain fabrication.

The one-piece backs on great basinets curve in such a way that they're hard to do when you rivet it on after rasing, much less when you have to fabricate it.

Many armets and close-helms simply don't lend themselves to fabrication for the above reason.

Decent sallets usually have flowing lines and undercuts, especially if the visor is built-in. Have you seen Patrick Thaden's sallet? You can't do that through fabrication.

And, to end off this brief list, I've never seen a fabricated hounskull that had the look and feel of most of the originals.

[Minotaur]

Your flat out wrong about all of the shapes listed, all of them can be done with modern methods. Compound curves are easier to get right with welding not harder. Where in the world did you pick that bit of malarkey up. Presses can do undercuts and compounds. You havent shown me anything except your lack of metal working knowledge.

[Mike F]

Uh huh.

I know this because I've tried to make those shapes with welding. I'm also a mechanical engineer and have worked with Chuck Davis, who does make armor through fabrication. The shapes are different.

Now, I can spoud qualifications all day, but you've provided none, and done nothing but insult me and provide no proof you've done any of this.

Ah, I just checked your prior posts. You were the one who wanted to spin helmets. You're apparently a fan of modern manufacturing, and while there's nothing wrong with that, the shapes are different. If you want to make a die for every possible shape, that's your perogative. After my time with CNC machining (lathes, mills and EMD) I'd happily say that the time and money you'd spend wouldn't be worth it unless you wanted to sell in bulk against the Indian munitions market.

Now, I leave you with a quote from Oscar Wilde: No one but a gentleman can insult me, and no gentleman will insult me.

[Jason Grimes]

I have to agree with Mike here. Many of the subtle shapes seen on original armour is a by-product of the technique used to make the armour. So a modern armourer who is using modern techniques has two hurdles to over come. The first is designing methods to make armour with modern tools. The second is to incorporate those subtle historic shape by-products into this process. This is why I think so few modern armourers have been able to get that historic shape and look correctly. I think that many people would be surprised just how fast historic techniques can be. Historic armourers had 3000 years to get the techniques down were the tools have changed very little. On the other hand we have had modern manufacturing for only about 200 years and the tools have changed significantly.

As to the topic, I try not to use any modern tools if I can. This is a choice I made because I want to know how the historic armourers made armour. I'm not interesting in how you can make armour with modern tools as it defeats my goal. But, I'm not trying to make a living making armour either. Even in it's heyday, Milan had around 200 armourers working and yet they were able to accomplish orders of thousands of helmets and other pieces of amour in a short period of time. I have yet to see any modern armourer produce at that volume, not even Valentine or those Indian manufacturers.

[Alcyoneus]

Thanks for the replies. I have been plasma cutting and TIG welding a lot of stuff and then was feeling guilty, maybe. Or maybe not. Wasnt sure, ya know? Also... Someone somewhere asked about a rolling jenny for edges, good news is the one I have the use of gets laughed at by the 16 gauge stainless, so noones missing out on that one.

In general, I don't think it matters how you cut out the metal. If you used an 'original surviving medieval pattern' and cut it out with a plasma, or a shear, once you grind the edges smooth, and have the same exact shape, the part isn't going to know.

Jenny's existed by 1620 at the latest, but it is real obvious when they are used, compared to hand done flutes.

[Minotaur]

Mike it wasnt my intention to be insulting but you are going contrary to what I have learned and know to be true. That is to break up complex shapes to be formed. It can just be done faster, easier and with less hammer skill with welding for the same shapes. If that were not the case you wouldnt have so many people welding their items.

Second I am not a fan of any particular methods, except what I have found that works well, for me at least.

Third no I wanst the guy who wanted to spin a helm. I did reply to someone that did, but I never said I wanted to spin one.

Forth if you want to see some of my work, look at the armour of the month(its been there for some time now). Maybe while your at it you can bug JT to get the contest running again

Fifth being a mech eng has nothing to do with metalshaping skill. For that matter just working with someone or trying something doesnt mean you have any skill in it. I have tried painting and worked with painters but I still suck at it.

Last just because you couldnt get something right doesnt mean others cant. Thats just bad thinking and logic. You shouldnt just stick your head in the sand and say, cant be done because I cant do it and have not seen it.

[Mike F]

Your flat out wrong about all of the shapes listed [. . .] You havent shown me anything except your lack of metal working knowledge.

It does look like you were deliberately insulting. And as someone who's made the same helm as yours in the AotM, you should've put more time into avoiding gapping issues on the visor, amongst other things.

I'm not going to debate this with you. You've plainly shown that you're not listening to what I'm saying. You cannot reproduce those shapes through modern methods without doing the same techniques as if you were doing it the medieval way, anyway. Anticlastic raising, for example, is the only way to get certain shapes. Greaves, gauntlets, frogmouth helms, etc. You can do this with a plate you've welded on, but look at Halberds' Monster Helm and tell me that wouldn't have been easier being raised.

My apologies on the spun top, I must have misread.

You do continue to insult me, but not my metalworking skills. I'll put this very, very bluntly.

I've spent a tremendous amount of time researching early 15th century armor, and I can happily show you every curve that cannot be welded. Every one.

And you get a tangent line with a weld. When you weld a piece, you set and angle. It's not a smooth flowing line. The curves come out wrong. That's it.

Perhaps you should spend less time saying:

Where in the world did you pick that bit of malarkey up.

And more time actually looking at armor, reading and researching armor, and actively trying to learn, not try (and fail) to look like you know better.

[Minotaur]

The gap in the visor is just enough to clear the rivit heads for the decorative I wanted to put on it but never finished because I was unhappy with the helm. It does have a lot of problems but thats not one of them.

I though you were at least going to give the devil his due when you said it could be done with plates you welded on but then go on to contradict your self. Lots of things have their myths and this is just another one of them. Just like blade smiths think forging is somehow better then stock removal. I have been wanting to make a bascinet for some time now and when I am done you will be proven wrong and thats that.

You should spend more time welding and less time purveying myths, not try (and fail) to look like you know better!

[Mike F]

myths ... Just like blade smiths think forging is somehow better then stock removal.

Listen, if you're about 17, you're doing fine. If you're not, do some research, and stop being a jerk. Why don't you call Craftsman and tell them drop-forging is a waste of time because you know better. Tell NASA cast components are better than their carefully forged booster segments. Same for Lockheed-Martin and their silly insistance for forged components in engines.

Also, the "When I make my helmet, I'll show you all, I'll be so awesome!" bit doesn't work for grown adults.

Here, I'll do you a favor! Let's ask if forging is superior!

[Minotaur]

I didnt say anything about castings but it never hurts to put words in to someones mouth right. Alot of things are droped froged and not machined out of plate because of cost and no other reason. What I am talking about is when you get your sheet/plate/strip steel and say forging it is better then stock removal. Now this is the part that cracks me up stock removal is just grinding on already forged steel. It was forged by the mills befor you got it. Next if showing you a finished product that is done right isnt proof enough what is? Nothing. Might as well be talking to a brick wall. Now that makes me the fool doesnt it.

[Mike F]

The lines of grain on a sheet/strip/etc. are parallel to each other. The lines of grain in a forged piece are parallel to the surface. Disregarding all else, delamination is then less of an issue.

So, let me recap. I don't know metalwork, and I also don't know materials and metallurgy. I'd think I was at least reasonably qualified in the latter, but, of course, I bow to your superior knowledge, though you've given no qualifications for yourself.

Don't you think if stock removal was of equal quality, there'd be more evidence of it in the Medieval world? Water power wheels could grind as well as our little, high-speed wheels, and after about 1400-1450, iron and steel were cheap enough that you could take the loss without too much worry.

While I do apologize for putting words in your mouth regarding the castings, you're plain incorrect regarding drop forging. I challenge you to find a $2 Chinese hammer that's drop forged or a $45 Peddinghaus that isn't.

You've given no proof, conducted yourself in a manner completely unbefitting someone looking for knowledge rather than trying to pass yourself off as superior, and generally added nothing to the boards in this thread.

And I have been dragged into another flame war. I can't convince you, and you have nothing worthwhile for me to take away from this, except knowledge of your character. I'm sorry for wasting everyone's time, especially my own. I withdraw.

Feel free to find me proof for stock removal being equal to forgings on the other thread, though. I figured if I posted it with a new heading, our numerous blade makers (of both types) could chime in.

[Minotaur]

I challenge you to find a $2 Chinese hammer that's drop forged

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/D ... mber=39217



Check the link in the other thread to the S.F.I