Calling Blows

Rhyance · Post by **Rhyance** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:14 pm

I decided to start a thread with this, rather than derail the one I was reading.

A lot of that discussion revolved around the idea either of calling shots good or saying what was wrong with them. I realize I've been largely out of it for several years (but I'll be back soon!) but my question is: why are we doing all this talking?

If it was a real fight and I hit you with a steel sword, and it only scored your mail, why would you tell me about it? Why not ignore it and get on with business? If I hit you with a steel sword, and it clove you to the eyes, why would you (good!) tell me about it? Why not just fall down?

It seems to me that there's a lot more talking than is strictly necessary, and that could erode the experience for those who are watching as well as for ourselves.

I think those that are watching would prefer not to hear the discussion of edge dynamics, point placement, body rotation, conservation of angular momentum...that often occurs in the most routine tourament fight. If I'm in the fight I know I would. I know we're not there just as a show, but let's at least consider how it looks.

If my opponent is doing all this talking because he or she thinks I need to have it explained why they're not taking the blow, well, chances are I don't.

I'll know it was a good blow when I see a body on the ground. If I don't see that, there must have been something wrong with the blow. I don't know what, but as my opponent is an honorable fighter, there must have been something wrong with it. If we have things to talk about, let's talk off the field.

Hrogn · Post by **Hrogn** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:23 pm

Rhyance Llew ap Llewellyn wrote:I decided to start a thread with this, rather than derail the one I was reading.

A lot of that discussion revolved around the idea either of calling shots good or saying what was wrong with them. I realize I've been largely out of it for several years (but I'll be back soon!) but my question is: why are we doing all this talking?

If it was a real fight and I hit you with a steel sword, and it only scored your mail, why would you tell me about it? Why not ignore it and get on with business? If I hit you with a steel sword, and it clove you to the eyes, why would you (good!) tell me about it? Why not just fall down?

It seems to me that there's a lot more talking than is strictly necessary, and that could erode the experience for those who are watching as well as for ourselves.

I think those that are watching would prefer not to hear the discussion of edge dynamics, point placement, body rotation, conservation of angular momentum...that often occurs in the most routine tourament fight. If I'm in the fight I know I would. I know we're not there just as a show, but let's at least consider how it looks.

If my opponent is doing all this talking because he or she thinks I need to have it explained why they're not taking the blow, well, chances are I don't.

I'll know it was a good blow when I see a body on the ground. If I don't see that, there must have been something wrong with the blow. I don't know what, but as my opponent is an honorable fighter, there must have been something wrong with it. If we have things to talk about, let's talk off the field.

You're preaching the choir here, my friend. I have no idea why people chat so much.

From a spectator's view, it looks as though the fighters are just trying to justify their rhinoing. If it wasn't any good then why are we talking about it? If it was good, why haven't you fallen over? It is funny to note that often, there isn't a hold called before the debating begins. It would be funny one day to have somebody take advantage of that.

Just hit the guy until he falls over. If he hasn't fallen over yet, keep hitting him.

Hrogn

Anton · Post by **Anton** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:25 pm

If I'm in a list fighting someone and he doesn't take a shot I want to know why. In return I think if I get hit light I should say so because the person may want to know they have to amp it up a little in calibration. For the people watching, I think it's better to hear 'Light' or 'Glancing' instead of wondering if the person who just got hit is ignoring blows. The marshals also want to understand why you didn't take the shot, especially if it's an active marshalling tourney. A demo is different as people who aren't used SCA combat don't understand why you're talking. A war is different, just keep swinging until the guy falls.

ColinG · Post by **ColinG** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:29 pm

Calling it "light" or "glancing" is fine. If you stop in the middle of the tournament to "explain" to me why it was bad you are in the wrong. Not saying anyone here is recommending this but I've started to see this more and more and it drives me crazy. I agree with the original post.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 4:47 pm

when something is marginal bad but I think it could be perceived as good, I usually say something as to why it was bad, but not conversationally.

Shallow
tippy
skipped
all cloth

But I most certainly don't stop what I'm doing, and I say it in my "5 foot voice" that generaly won't be heard by anyone more than 10 feet away unless they're really listening or I'm facing the right way for them.

Odo · Post by **Odo** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:02 pm

Because we are fighting a tournament of peace. There is actually no "killing" going on. I have never once seen someone die from getting hit.

This could just be my opinion.

Odo

Stephen du Bois · Post by **Stephen du Bois** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:11 pm

While I am not in favor of the need for full blown discussions or the need to stop fighting, I have no problem my opponent telling a shot felt light or glanced. I think it helps to keep the game friendly and lets me know where their calibration is and how I need to adjust my next shot so it sticks.

I'd rather talk it out with my worthy and honorable opponent, than have the marshals start calling the blows for us.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:13 pm

I tend to do a lot of sword blocking. If my opponent throws a wrap and I block it with my sword behind my back, I will often say, "stick" to let them know that I blocked it. They can not necessarily see the block and their hand tells them that the sword hit something, so I am letting them know what it was that they hit.

Other times, I may ask if it was my own shield or their weapon that just crashed into my head. For example, even though you got shield on it, if the (say) polarm hits you around the corner of your shield, and it is hard enough, oriented properly, etc., then they got you. If, however, they didn't get it around your shield and instead drove your shield into your head, then they didn't get you. All you know is that you got some shield on it and *something* still hit you plenty hard. So, you ask which one it was.

Likewise, if I knock their shield into their head, I will let them know so that they don't take the blow.

In the first case, I am letting my opponent know that I got a successful block in. In the second, I am asking them if my block was successful. In the third case, I am letting them know that their block was successful.

- Scott

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 9:49 pm

every blow i throw at you is an unasked question. that question is "have i bested you?"

your reaction, or lack of reaction, is the only answer i want. i will continue to ask until you answer me through action or until i answer you through action. this really is the most simple form of communication i deal with in my entire life on a daily basis.

all the chatty kathy crap is not needed, not welcomed, and adds nothing to the contest.

regards
logan

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:37 pm

Hrogn wrote:[From a spectator's view, it looks as though the fighters are just trying to justify their rhinoing. If it wasn't any good then why are we talking about it? If it was good, why haven't you fallen over?

Hrogn

Have you ever watched a tape of a Crown Tourney with a peanut gallery near the microphone? ;-)

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:18 pm

yes, and i make it a point to listen to all the armchair idiots on every tape i have. part of the reason i dont care what the gallery thinks is because i know that they show little understanding of what they are watching.

regards
logan

Alcyoneus wrote:
Hrogn wrote:[From a spectator's view, it looks as though the fighters are just trying to justify their rhinoing. If it wasn't any good then why are we talking about it? If it was good, why haven't you fallen over?

Hrogn

Have you ever watched a tape of a Crown Tourney with a peanut gallery near the microphone?

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Wed Nov 02, 2005 11:53 pm

I'd much rather listen to only the fighters, and the marshals...

A cone of silence surrounding them, and leave everyone else out.

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:08 am

i agree mostly. once we get to a point in which marshals act as the safety officers they are and leave the blow calling to the only people that have a clue i will be a happier man. im fortunate that here in atlantia most of our marshals know their responsibilities and their place.

regards
logan

Alcyoneus wrote:I'd much rather listen to only the fighters, and the marshals...

A cone of silence surrounding them, and leave everyone else out.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:18 am

I don't mind asking my opponent or the marshals for extra information, to try to figure out why a shot did not land right, or if I might have missed something. But most people's eyes are not 'precise' enough for more than that, imo.

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:40 am

absolutley. i too will ask a guy (if there is a break in the fight) "hey, where did i hit you?". most often this is when i throw a shot and it hits but the timing is off or the squishy target was hard (or vice versa). thats not blow calling though. :wink:

regards
logan

Alcyoneus wrote:I don't mind asking my opponent or the marshals for extra information, to try to figure out why a shot did not land right, or if I might have missed something. But most people's eyes are not 'precise' enough for more than that, imo.

Vebrand · Post by **Vebrand** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 8:35 am

Why are we talking so much you ask? That is easy. We are trying to be nice to each other and play by modern PCness. People want everyone to go home feeling good about their fights. Not saying this is bad but this is why 90% of the talking occurs. When a call of light or glancing will do some want to stop and talk about it over and over. Now I will go on record that talking is a good thing and when a blow is "really' in question then stop and talk about things or get the the marshalls view on it. I think my biggest question I ask is when someone calls a shot I don't think is good and I as, "are you sure that was good".

Vebrand

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:01 am

I'm trying to analyze why I say anything when fighting, and I think it may be out of a sense of self-preservation. LOL

For example, if I'm fighting some big stick wielding person who can REALLY thump me, and he throws a shot that gets hung up in cloth or something, but probably felt a lot of tug on his arm, I tell him so he doesn't think, "Oh REALLY?" And turn the dial past 10, and then the next shot hits me in the shoulder or something.

But like I said, I try to keep the feedback to an absolute minimum. I only comment on shots (in tourney) that I think may be questionable to my opponent. In practice, I'm used to telling people what I think of most shots that are even close, to get them to understand what they're doing and how to make it better.

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:11 am

As much as I like to blab here, I really don't like to talk while contending.

When someone starts asking me about a blow I threw, I say "Hey, I throw 'em, you call 'em." By saying this I say I want the other person to just do a quick check, and if the blow didn't really get a peice of them, to act accordingly.

About blows to me, it has gotten to the point where the armor itself can make it tricky. The globose breastplate skips thrusts. The deeply drawn elbows can glance cuts. I have to be careful about shots that land strangely, because I am still not completely used to how I should respond to some strikes.

This can result in some talk by me in contradiction to my own preferences.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

Nissan Maxima · Post by **Nissan Maxima** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 9:19 am

I don't like to have conversations about blows during a scrap, the blows should speak for themselves, but some talk is inescapable to prevent confusion and anger.

I do however talk to people sometimes when I fight them as a tactical distraction, along the lines of "hey, did your mother pick out that dress for you?" or "gee, your coat of arms sure is funny."

ColinG · Post by **ColinG** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 10:03 am

I agree. That's a tactical decision based on strategy; not excuse making...give me you alibis for when we have beer in our hands.

Guinness · Post by **Guinness** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:20 am

I prefer when someone tells me what was wrong with what I threw. I don't want them to stop the fight, but if we make a pass and part to reset, then I don't see a quick heads-up as delaying anything.

Of course, as I am still learning, I appreaciate any information on what I am doing wrong.

ColinG · Post by **ColinG** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:27 am

On the training field that is fine. On the tourney field...no.

white mountain armoury · Thu Nov 03, 2005 11:39 am

I try and keep my mouth shut unlesss its realy needed, i dont go for the "light" "skippy/tippy" etc, I prefer to call good when its good, or continue to fight when its not, if asked a question about a blow i will answer, but if not i prefer to just carry on with the bout. I can find it frustrating when someone askes me if a blow was good, because if it was i would take it.
While often it may be a simple and harmless question it can also be viewed by some as an insult to ones integrity,there are variables of course.

Curt B. · Post by **Curt B.** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 12:12 pm

I agree, don't talk about it. If you hit someone and they don't take it, then try not to do the pause and look thing. This will only get you killed. Keep swinging, dodging and blocking until it's over.

Compliants and questions should wait until the end.

A few problems with that though:

1) Here's a scenerio. The fighter just knocked the tar outta his opponent (complete with loud thump noise) and the opponent shrugs it off and keeps coming...Oops, the opponent just hit the fighter back. In retaliation, the fighter ignores the shot and keeps fighting. No one says nothing. Each exchanges several "good" shots without dying, which shows much dishonor on the field. *Ignorant* spectators (as some people describe them... not I) see much of this going on and wonder what this game has come to.

2) Your opponent hits you with something, so instead of talking about it, you call good because it's uncertain and want to retain honor. However, your opponent starts talking by saying "don't take that, get back here." Thus negating the less talking and more fighting concept.

Edit:

Maybe #2 is slightly different, as they may technically be at the end of the fight. I guess the fighter should "die" first. If it is discussed afterwards that the opponent did not think it was a good shot,etc. , then the Herald should announce it as a rematch to the spectators. That way it doesn't look like a discussion during the actual fight.

Rhyance · Post by **Rhyance** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 1:31 pm

My thanks to all the responders. I started this thread at work and when I come back the next day it has over 20 responses!

I'm surprised and gratified to find that so many agree with me. I do believe in communication between fighters. I just think it should be done non-verbally. When you fall over you're telling me that was a good blow. When you don't, you're telling me it wasn't. If I disagree - too bad. I'm not qualified to say what's going on in your armor and must defer to the person who is.

As there is human judgment involved, there will be mistakes. I feel that the acceptance of a certain amount of error is preferable to the alternative. I also find that I don't want to hear about why you're not taking the blow - do you think so little of my ability to just deal with the fact that my blow didn't tell? Do you think I need to hear about it?

If you think you're just being nice to me, I'd prefer that you thought I was tough enough to handle it. If you want to tell me something or ask me something, let's do it later.

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:09 pm

Morgan wrote:when something is marginal bad but I think it could be perceived as good, I usually say something as to why it was bad, but not conversationally.

Shallow
tippy
skipped
all cloth

"Cause you hit like a Morgan"...

oh wait, I only use that in certain fights :twisted:

Brian de Lorne · Post by **Brian de Lorne** » Thu Nov 03, 2005 4:58 pm

At practice, yeah, I talk a lot. I want to know what my opponents point of view on this shot and that shot are. In tourney, I'm trying to get used to not talking. I don't have a problem with talking while fighting though, as long as you don't get mad when I clock you for dropping your defense!
:twisted:

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Fri Nov 04, 2005 9:44 am

Jean Paul de Sens wrote:
Morgan wrote:when something is marginal bad but I think it could be perceived as good, I usually say something as to why it was bad, but not conversationally.

Shallow
tippy
skipped
all cloth

"Cause you hit like a Morgan"...

oh wait, I only use that in certain fights

Laugh it up fur ball.

Livia Tasia · Post by **Livia Tasia** » Sun Nov 06, 2005 5:13 pm

What about with new people? Do you guys feel okay about chatting when you fight someone new? After reading these responses I wonder if I probably ask too many questions during a fight now.....

Mostly I want to know how to get to my opponent. It seems like every person I fight blocks so well I can never get a shot in. So after a bit I'll stop and ask them, how do I kill you?

Livia Tasia
An Tir

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Sun Nov 06, 2005 6:03 pm

at a practice sure thing. when you enter a tourney you are supposed to know what you are doing and you should be there to enter that contest. leave the chatter for afterwards doing pick up fights.

regards and best of luck
logan

Calling Blows

Calling Blows

Re: Calling Blows

Re: Calling Blows

Re: Calling Blows