Aventail problems

Henry of Bexley · Post by **Henry of Bexley** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:37 pm

I can't host pics, so this might get interesting...

I'm made a bascinet that has turned out pretty nice, in spite of me. Now I wanna put an aventail on it. And I thought getting the welds smooth was the hard part...

I've got a relatively short aventail done that hangs pretty decent on the back... and that's it. I've got three problems so far-

1) The chin droops big time. Do I need to contract this even tighter? The maille is farily spread out for my tastes as is... I haven't added the sideburns things yet, though, and perhaps that would help?

2) The front hangs away from my chest by at lest a couple inches. I'm thinking I either need to cut the face opening on the helm back a bit so the thing can hang closer to me, or perhaps add sererval rows to the front only until it does meet. Thoughts? Other suggestions?

3) This one happened on my last coif too... the part hanging on the shoulder hangs open, and in my opinion it is uuuugly... any way to fix it?

Perhaps pics would help... I could email them to someone who could host them, if someone would be so kind...

LWCM · Post by **LWCM** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:44 pm

Horradrick,

I'm trying to wrap my brain around your aventail problems and I'm having some difficulty. Probably because my brain is still full of Algebra

. Before I try to answer some of your questions I want to suggest that you get a flickr account. www.flickr.com It's a FREE pic hosting site. You are limited in the megabytes you can post per month but it would probably suffice for your use. You can follow the link in my signature to go there directly.

Now on to your questions

1. You will probably need to contract just a little bit under your chin. Probably 2-4 rings in total.

2. I think that the 'hanging' problem you are having is due to the structure of the maille. The bottom hem is pulling down and the top of the aventail is tethered to your helm, so that causes it to pull away from you somewhat.

3. I really need to see a picture of the shoulder problem

My $0.02

- J

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 11:08 am

1) The Sideburns Things, a/k/a Temple Triangles: you need 'em. Their front edges will slope from the top ends of the camail strap down along your cheekbones to meet the camail main body's top linkrow somewhere around the corners of your lips, thus suspending that whole part of your camail and hanging it just under your lower lip. Your visor or bargrill will close over the whole. A hoodlike bascinet and camail liner whose lower edges of the face opening are cut to follow the lines of the temple triangles and lower lip area, like so \T/ (that's your face staring out) will provide a place for you to anchor the camail's edge to the liner by stitching, thus holding the camail perfectly in place and padding your chin against the chafing of the camail.

Could you describe the arrangement of your camail strap? That determines the shape of the temple triangles, which can be isosceles, isosceles-plus-filling-in-behind, or right triangles hypotenuses forward. All depends on how the strap is laid out.

2) I never had this problem, but I suspect you haven't made your camail big enough yet. I extend a camail until it's just over my shoulders, which causes it to come down far enough on my chest that it lies on my chest.

3) I too need a better description of problem three. "The part hanging on my shoulder hangs open?"

Henry of Bexley · Post by **Henry of Bexley** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:57 pm

I haven't made the strap just yet, but I did pattern it- It basically describes a slightly more than right angle, i. e. it looks like \____ on the side. I figured I'd do the main body and make sure it fit before adding the sideburns.

I could make it bigger, but the sides around the face opening of the bascinet (this is the helm, not the aventail) completely obscure the profile of my face. The maille comes nowhere near to my chin at this point- I'm guestimating there's at least an inch of space there. So I am going to attempt to bend/cut it back a bit.

As far as problem three.... the part of the drape that sits from my collar bone to about the point of my shoulder (at current length) sits so that the rows pull apart rather than together, similar to the way you want maille to hang while you are making cloth. Does it have to look like that?

I'll be taking pictures tonight.

Henry of Bexley · Post by **Henry of Bexley** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 7:38 am

Uploading pics on dial-up is a pain...

http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/horradric ... .dir=/eb57

As you can see, I added the sideburns and they eliminated problem 1.

Problem two is better now because I added two more rows. If I add three more I think It'll be good.

The fifth pic shows problem #3. Is that how it's supposed to look? I'd like it to hang closed more, like it is in the back.

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 9:06 am

I'm no expert on how helms should fit, but it looks to me like the helm is too big for you. Or too deep from front to back, rather. I think your chin is supposed to stick out past the face opening of the helm, but I could be wrong.

From what I can tell from the pics, the aventail needs to be expanded more at the area just below the bottom edge of your helm. It's tucking back up under the bottom edge because it's not wide enough in circumference to spread out.

As for the part over the shoulders, it's going to hang that way. Gravity pulls at the center front/center back portions of the maille, causing tension on the parts at the top of the shoulder and making it hang open like it is. You may be able to add in expansions to the shoulder part to make the maille denser there, but I think it would still do the same thing.

If you would like some help in fixing this, just send me an email and I will try to help. I really think alot of the problems are due to the fit of the helm though - but again, I could be wrong. EDIT: The helm also looks too wide at the bottom. It seems to flair out too much for the shape of your face. This may also be interfering with the look you are after.

Cat

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Thu Nov 17, 2005 1:09 pm

That is quite a deep bascinet front to back -- I wonder if the maker has a head shaped like that, and if you've got a head that, well, goes the other way. You've got a bunch of extra depth to play with; before you go chopping anything out of the face opening, what about putting extra padding in the rear to push your face well forward in the helmet?

You've got a visor, right? Part of this whole project will be to integrate the bascinet with the camail and with the visor, so somewhere in here, we'd like to get a look at that to know what we're dealing with.

Now I see what you meant by problem three. I wouldn't sweat it; what's going on there is the links over your shoulders are being pulled tight by gravity. About the only "cure" for it would be mail of a tight aspect ratio. Something that might alleviate things is to insert more expansions into what you've got, curiously enough. Your pics show a camail that pulls into folds when set on a table, which suggests it could stand more expansions. The extra mail this would make available just might smooth out the contrast between the shoulders where it's pulled tight and the hanging regions where it's contracted. A camail that lies flat on a table like a big metal doily with a helmet stuck up its middle doesn't seem to run into too many problems. A camail that can lie flat or be quite shallowly conical seems to be the best camail. Don't get too crazy for diameter on a camail, though; a camail that is too wide gets heavy and its sheer weight makes it difficult to turn one's head. Decorative dags on the hem don't give this problem, though, as their weight is much less than would be the weight of complete linkrows there, particularly if you keep the dags small. Build the dags row by row onto the camail's edge, though. That's easier than making up a batch of dags and sticking them on -- you're less prone to run into problems with your calculations. Let me know if you want to dag and I'll advise. Cat's also experienced at this, so she's doubtless got some good tips.

Incidentally, I concur on the situation at the neck area and the mail pulling in tight there. You need more expansions in that area and above it, though I don't think you'll need any across the face opening. A lot of this is going to come more right once you get the camail built out to just over the points of your shoulders

Clinker · Post by **Clinker** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:43 am

It looks like your camail needs more expansion. It should lay flat without the"wrinkles" shown in the first pic. Add a wedge over each shoulder for the easiest fix. You don't need much expansion over the chest and back.

Expansion patterns are fickle beasts, my first camail had too MUCH expansion, and I had to remove a couple wedges from the front AND back to get it to look right.

The camail should fit tightly to your chest when you make it about big enough to reach the point of your shoulders

Henry of Bexley · Post by **Henry of Bexley** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 12:35 am

GAAAAH!!!!

Okay, now that the agression is out...

I've been having an absolute blast attempting to pattern my strap, now that I got the aventail to behave to my liking (sarcasm off). The strap I cut out fits the camail perfectly, and the helm while the maille isn't attached to it, even when folded over (My leather's in the 6-8 oz range), but put the three together and it doesn't fit worth a spit. The top edge, which fit to the helm admirably IMHO alone bunches out like a half done flare on metal- with ripples and the like- once the maille is added and the fit is retried. The things I identified as probable cause-

I attempted a no sewing approach in which slots were cut in the middle of the double wide strap, the top row of rings was passed through the slots, a wire was passed through (a real pain on those corners for the temple triangles) and the whole ensemble was folded over so the maille and fold were at the bottom when set against the helm. I would blame the fold but it fits fine without the maille. Could this approach be to blame?

As you may notice in the pictures, I took care in insuring that the straight skirt you see on a lot of bascinets would be less noticable on mine, by giving a conical shape to it and by tilting the helm top so it sat at an angle. I am wondering if this wierd shape is to blame in my patterning difficulties.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 3:02 am

slots were cut in the middle of the double wide strap, the top row of rings was passed through the slots, a wire was passed through (a real pain on those corners for the temple triangles) and the whole ensemble was folded over so the maille and fold were at the bottom when set against the helm.

Shoot, you didn't put the fold on the bottom edge, did you? The folding over of a doubled-over camail strap is supposed to be the top edge. And sew the durn thing.

Henry of Bexley · Post by **Henry of Bexley** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:07 am

I did sew the bottom edge... I figured that way I could avoid sewing because my awl has gone MIA.

If that's why it's not working I guess I'll make another one... and tear my room apart.

Clinker · Post by **Clinker** » Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:42 pm

I did the folded strap method too. It wrinkled up, especially at the upturn at the temples. I've since noticed a lot of guys just use a heavier leather, cut to angle up at the temples. Then they punch a lot of little holes on the bottom edge to directly attach the maille. THAT does lay flat, and exactly at the angle desired.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 4:56 am

Well, you get clever with the doubled strap: its outside portion is all one piece like this \_______________/ (though I'd make it in two halves and sew 'em together in center back \_____+_____/) and the inner half is cut right at the dogleg bend, making the inner portion two separate tabs while the outer portion is the bit shaped like a hockey stick \_____ or \\====, if you cheat the = signs downwards a bit. There will be a tab of leather abaft and above the \ portion, and another above the _______ portion, with a cut at the inside of the angle, and no need to actually take a wedge out of there, as the tab parts that make up the inner portion of the camail strap will fold down and away from each other. This will leave you with a gap on the inner portion where the tabs fold away from the angle; if you wish to fill it in, you may. Remember, the fold is at the camail strap's top edge.

I used a single strap for my first camail, and the holes-in-bottom-edge butted mail assembly. First and last time, incidentally; my standards are higher now. Thing's holding together very satisfactorily, though. I made my camail strap of three pieces, sewn together: the center of the camail strap running around the back of the helmet, and the doglegs stitched to either end, shooting upwards. Suitable holes for vervelles, no decoration at all -- I've been incessantly talking about decorative camail straps since I came on this forum, and I've a project about halfway finished to cover my plain camail strap with something decorative in an oak-leafy motif in yellow, dark green, and red undersides. More provably botanical (Quercus lobata oak leaves, specifically -- I'm in California where the valley oaks grow) than documentably historical, but it ought to look pretty good once I get a sufficient quantity of Round Tuits to finish the job! -- and there are simpler things that might be done for a decorated camail strap. I see, though, that I digress.

There's a doubled-strap equivalent of the three-piece assembly I did: cut the ends off, miter the angle joins, and sew the whole schmeer back together. I know of no artwork to show such sewn seams, but then period art didn't get any too anal-retentive about showing every seam in a garment, either.

I believe your leather's light enough that a stitching awl ought to go right through it -- got one of those?

Clinker · Post by **Clinker** » Thu Nov 24, 2005 7:40 pm

K, pieced sounds like the way to go. I didn't see any seams in any photos of real armor or in brasses, etc so I just folded over a long rectangle of 3-4 oz leather. Figured if I wet it would come out. It DID work, but not as well as I hoped.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 3:47 am

Yeah, a straight rectangle for a camail strap works for whatever isn't the dogleg.

Cat · Post by **Cat** » Fri Nov 25, 2005 1:12 pm

A straight rectangle works? Maybe that's where I went wrong on the one I tried to make. I tried to curve the pattern a little so it conformed to the shape of the helm when attached. It was a total pain in the butt to get the right amount of curve (and to get it curved in the right place). I figured a straight rectangle would make it "wavy" along the bottom edge when attached, but if not, that's a MUCH easier way to go than the way I was trying to do it.

Thanks for the tip!
Cat

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sat Nov 26, 2005 4:53 pm

Remember leather can be coaxed into different shapes when wetted.

Sagebowman · Post by **Sagebowman** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:15 pm

My sone is putting a camail/aventail on his basinet. It's SCA style with the fixed grill. I have seen one recently, but can't locate the post on how to attach the maille to the helmet. He is using vervelles. Will it be easier to attach the leather band to the helmet and then the maille to it, or attach the maille to the leather and then to the helmet? Suggestion for weight of leather? Sincethe grill is attached to the outsid of the face opening where does the maille attach around the face?
thanks for the help to two novices.
Gene

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:52 am

A fixed SCA grill, you can just wire the chin part of the camail to the bottom bar of the bargrill. Your son may wish to put in some contractions immediately below the chin bar to pull the camail back a little towards his throat for good balance, so the helmet isn't too heavy forward. Don't have him do too much of that, though: he wants the spaced protection there, and besides, he still needs enough room to get his head into his hat. This is particularly important if he fights in glasses.

I'd attach the leather to the camail before putting the whole on the helmet. Pre-fit the camail strap on the vervelles, though, to get it lying right and solve any fitting probs, then take it off and attach. He won't be structurally needing the temple triangles, but if the vervelle line is laid out that way, he'll put them on for the looks. Temple triangles really become necessary with a moveable/removable visor, as then the chin portion of the camail has to support itself.

Weight of leather: for a single strap, either with links into it through holes (inauthentic) or the top linkrow sewn to the back of the strap (authentic, and the only sensible way to attach riveted links), seven to nine ounce. For a doubled-over strap, six ounce or so. There is greater opportunity to decoratively cut the strap edge with a doubled strap, though decoration of the top edge isn't unknown. I strongly recommend making the strap decorative; it's good for your morale to have a pretty hat. I've recently seen a pic of one example that boasted leaflike tabs at both edges, top and bottom -- unusually ornate, but known to history. Butted-mail links should be densely stitched, with multiple stitches within each link, to prevent links from slipping off the stitches. Solid/riveted links don't have this problem.

The simplest thing to fit through the vervelles is a length of wire: I used brazing rod. Make sure whatever you use fits through the vervelle holes with the camail strap in place. Braided cord with the end wrapped in a little bit of tape to stiffen the last inch pokes through vervelles easily. Wire or cord ends sometimes get a bit of decorative treatment too, like a bead covering a cord's knotted end, the end teased out into a little tassel.

Chivalrybk · Post by **Chivalrybk** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:28 am

I am Sagebowman's son. I just finished my aventail last night

Very Happy but I have not completely solved the chin area of the aventail

Confused. What do you guys think about a small aluminum welding rod run through the top row of the chain to keep it's shape. I have yet to find a concrete/period solution that I completely understand. This is my first post so hopefully it will help others. This is my helm to this moment.

Thanks,
Andy Freeman
Andrew Bailey

Christian Thomas of York · Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:00 pm

looks pretty good! you may want to put out an APB on Master Eldrid/Tom Justus and he may give you some pointers on how to attach this Like Duke Cuans and Duke Logans helms.

looks really nice, now you need to make one for Edward for his helm, and one for me for christmas since im way to rusty...

Chris

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 12:08 pm

Andy Sagebowman's son, welcome and well come to the Archive! May your stay with us be long and profit you much.

Unfortunately, with that kind of fixed bargrill, you don't have very much in the way of options. The period solution to camail droop was temple triangles to suspend everything at the chin, in effect, from the region of the temples themselves. Kind of like the chains on a castle drawbridge.

You only have vervelles along the bottom edge of your helmet, don't you? You'd've needed them angling up to the upper corners of the face opening. The other part of the situation we have to deal with is that your bargrill is fixed. This would actually be easier with a hinged bargrill that closes down on top of everything -- even if you have to bend the bargrill a little in places to get it to sit right.

An effective but not terribly correct solution is to hang the camail's chin from the bottom bar of your fixed bargrill. This will also help stop freak thrusts from coming up between your face and the bargrill -- and you need that, or the helm won't pass the marshallate. I had welding done to fill in the chin area of my bargrill with some more bars, myself. Securing the camail's chin to the bargrill wasn't an option because my bargrill is a centerhinge removable type and I wanted to keep that. I need to rework my temple triangles -- I only got my camail chin suspension maybe half right.

If you can get more camail strap going straight up along the sides of your bargrill, you might be able to construct temple triangles that are woven around the bargrill bars and are mainly inside your bargrill -- but dang, that seems mighty awkward and raggy.

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