Blakenshield Armour

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 7:51 am

I'm staying out of the whole wording debate on Blankenshield's site, though I will say, as a potential customer, that it sounds alarmist. That always raises a flag for me.

Another thing Blankenshield may wish to consider, and other armourers who have or are considering an online presence, is the use of line drawings. Blankenshield is not the only armouring web site that uses line drawings to display their products. This is a sure-fire way for me not to order.

Buying online always carries some measure of risk. You can't handle the think you want to buy. When I look at an armourer's web site, I want to see pictures of the item I am interested in buying, so that I can at least tell that the armourer has made one of those before. I certainly don't want to be an armourer's learning piece.

What is even better is to see pictures of many different items that the armourer has produced, so that I can judge the skill of the armourer to my tastes.

Something to consider.

Steve

------------------
Forth Armoury
Highly authentic, affordable riveted maille.

Winterfell · Post by **Winterfell** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:00 am

Mr. Cross,
I have a few questions concerning your amour. If you would like to reply privately that is fine.
My first question is when lining the helmets with sheep wool the way that you do, isn't that really hot and unbreathable, compared to the linen linings that I have seen?
Is there a particular style of armour that you are specifically replicating or are you improving on or combining aspects of various period armours?
The painting method that you use, where can I find documentation on that?
I only found one image of Hans Prenners work here:
http://www2.iicm.edu/jucs_mmisdata.zeughaus.weapons.feldk
I cannot tell from the picture if the armour is painted or blued.
If you or the tournament group is fighting live steel or rebated, do you encourage arming outfits with chainmaile? Or is the armour and combat requirements more mid to late 17th century?
The only book that I have on armouring itself is "The Armourer and His Craft" by Charles FFoulkes. I am not sure how good or bad this book may be, but it does not seem to support many of your claims about armour. But then again it may not be an all encompassing book.
Regardless I would love to hear from you, either on this forum or privately.

------------------
"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics

Jasper · Post by **Jasper** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 8:15 am

back back down boys down no doggie biscuits.

Guys.
blanketshield armour is modern armour made for the renn fair actor. With rolled edges to protect the wearer etc. Hells angel knights in biker boots.

The rest of you guys are saying his details facts are wrong and suspect etc.

Solution
Know he going for the ren fair tourney actors and make adjustments for modern needs. Aka I paid 1 million dollars for Greer I will show his face during the fighting scences.

Blakenshield clears up his documentation on his web site and provides some sources page.

Tim Finkas · Post by **Tim Finkas** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 10:07 am

Sasha wrote:
"[snip]..Mark just refused to sign on to the worldwide consipracy."

I think you mean Matthew (Cross) not Mark (Mc Young). I just mentioned Mark because he worked in the Blankenshield booth at Ren Faire and he was a live-steel fighter. Matthew is the proprietor and armourer.

Just wanted to clear that up!

Tim

Tim Finkas · Post by **Tim Finkas** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 10:13 am

Jasper:

I am curious, what does "Aka I paid 1 million dollars for Greer I will show his face during the fighting scences." mean?

Who is Greer? What fight scenes? What am I missing here?

Just curious...

Winterfell · Post by **Winterfell** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 10:19 am

That is from another thread.
He meant Geere. Richard Geere was paid to be in First Knight so if he is gonna fight he is gonna take that helmet off so people can see his face.
(Which cost him a couple of back teeth because of that by the way. I think Richard now knows why they wore helmets back then.

)

------------------
"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics

Gundo · Post by **Gundo** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 12:32 pm

http://www.alltel.net/~gundobad/others.htm

That review of Blankenshield has been unchanged for something like four years. No reason to mess with it now.

Being the Auncient Archiver I am, and being tight with Matt Broadway when he was running this show, I recall the helm Matt never received for review. I remember the three or maybe four times Joe Cadieux [billed as Blankenshield's webmaster at the time] said the helm was finished and would ship 'next week'.I remember the Matt Cross essay on effective and durable sword-making, wherein we were instructed to get a leaf spring and beat it flat with a sledgehammer, then grind it to shape. No heat required, by the way. Perhaps microfractures add character to one's durable and effective war-sword.

------------------
Gundobad,
Wise Ogre Armory

'Soylens viridis homines est.'

A position worth taking, is worth defending.

Mykaru · Post by **Mykaru** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 1:49 pm

Chill everyone. I disagree strongly with many of Blankenshields assertions. However, search for the positive. His page on rolling edges is very helpful for beginners. Winterfells post is as it should be...... no accusations or opinions. Just clear simple questions for specific explanations/documentation. His courtesy should set a clear example for all of us.

wilmot · Post by **wilmot** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 2:54 pm

Mykaru,
I respect that you are trying to find good in this website but this guy has filled it with beyond bad information and spends parts of it insulting almost everyone else in armoured combat\armouring field. I would find this unexecptable from the best in our field. I also find his posting his views and then stating that he will not be around is even worse.
Ron Simmons

Tom Knighton · Post by **Tom Knighton** » Fri Jun 21, 2002 10:38 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tournament Productions:
Hello,

I have fought in many Blankenshield suits over the years and own over 12 varrious suits. Some of the suits are as new as 1 month to as old as 20 years. I have had over 14 years of heavy, full contact steel fighting as a part of and now leader of Tournament Productions and have never had a broken bone or injury more than a bruise in all that time. I thank my training and the Blankenshield armour for that protection.

There are many photos and video of the armour in action on the tournament productions web site. www.tournamentproductions.org

Please let me know if you have any quesitons about the armour that a frequent wearer could answer for you.

Kind Regards,

Joseph Cadieux
Tournament Productions
Head Instructor

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Joseph,

While I thank you for your offer of assistance, I think you should know that I am also a frequent wearer of armor (although at the moment I am between kits.)

I will not argue the safety of Blankenshield harness', but I will argue against the authenticity of them. I'm sorry, but his website touts them as historical while everything I have EVER studied shows that he is basing his armor on items I've never seen in my life. I also do not agree with his refering to other armorers as incompetent (if not by direct quote then by inference).

I personally feel that Mr. Cross would do better to simply have his website changed to reflect that he makes armor for combat-shows and not let people think that armor really looks like that.

I'm sorry, but I feel that I needed to share my opinion (like anyone asked).

Bran

------------------
Courage is not the absence of fear, it's the ability to overcome it.

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 6:58 pm

My only comment is on this:

My first question is when lining the helmets with sheep wool the way that you do, isn't that really hot and unbreathable, compared to the linen linings that I have seen?

No, it is an alternate method and it works. It's not particularly hot, either. Horsehair-stuffed linen works too, although I've seen comments to the contrary.
Blue closed-cell foam is hot and it sucks. That is a fact.

Khann · Post by **Khann** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 7:43 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bascot:
My only comment is on this:

No, it is an alternate method and it works. It's not particularly hot, either. Horsehair-stuffed linen works too, although I've seen comments to the contrary.
Blue closed-cell foam is hot and it sucks. That is a fact.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey my close cell foam just gets hot. I am jealous

However I find it takes impacts well.. I use a arming cap to keep the sweat out of my eyes and to adjust the fit.

Thanks Khann

[This message has been edited by Khann (edited 06-23-2002).]

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 9:54 pm

Hahahahaha, you owe me a New Castle Brown and a screen-cleaning!

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Sat Jun 22, 2002 11:42 pm

Bascott:
How in the world can one hammer a cold truck or car leaf spring flat?
Micro factures aside, the energy required is excessive.

When 20 feet of raw 2" X 1/4" Heat treated flat automotive spring steel bar stock is only $26.00.

I still have not figgered out how to cut my sword out of it yet.

Would a torch mess up the temper?

Green, I can stand on it. On blocks and it returns to true after jumping on it about 7" flex.

Best damn steel I ever seen.

Hal.

Guillaume2 · Post by **Guillaume2** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 2:19 am

about the steel for sword...is that 5160 steel?? if not,what alloy is it?

about the armoury you are talking,personally i like the style of his armour,it seem to work well and reliable...

and for those who say that there is no picture...search the section on how his armour are made,ull see picture of all piece

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 7:18 am

Hi Guillaume,

It is not the 'style of armour' people are objecting to (tast is subjective, and nobody ought dictate personal taste to you!). What people are objecting to is the claims made that -

1. These are accurate reproductions of any historical armour in form (they are not, and this is easy to prove)

2. The outrageous claim that these suits are the only safe (and allegedly accurate) armour out there, and that every other armourer is in essence making dangerous crap (and he implies everybody, from the 16 year old kid down the block, all the way up to and including people like Robert MacPhereson and other well known armourers (who are actually capable of making exacting reproductions of museum pieces, even out of high carbon steel)

3. The dreadful misinformation, ranging from stuff taken out of terribly dated books long discredited, to what appear to be fabrications made up 'of whole cloth' - placed out as "accurate information" to any poor unfortunate who happens to stumble across the site and read it and believe it. This last point is what I personaly find most objectionable of all. ("Clamshell gauntlets"?, "LegYrns?", I'd love to see what book the terminology came from - possibly the Gor series....)

That the armour functions, no one doubts. The fact is, the way the Tournament Productions people fight, if the armour did not function, the local hospitals and cemetaries would be filled with their crippled and dead. I do not doubt however that it would function even better (much better) if it followed historical armour in form, and were fitted to the body closely.

------------------
Bob R.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 5:00 pm

I'd like to come across their GS fighters (in the video) in a tournament...

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Sun Jun 23, 2002 5:27 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Bascott:
How in the world can one hammer a cold truck or car leaf spring flat?
Micro factures aside, the energy required is excessive.
When 20 feet of raw 2" X 1/4" Heat treated flat automotive spring steel bar stock is only $26.00.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dunno, I didn't say that. The only thing I've successfully made out of steel was myself mad.

Acelynn · Post by **Acelynn** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 1:22 pm

Oh and don't get me started on Matthew Cross's "Jousting and Training methods"

Now that's a real bit of fun. I especially like the part about ALL jousting horses were taught to rear at the beginning of their runs and also to automatically switch leads just prior to the moment of impact.

He posted a whole lot of fun stuff on the professional jousters forum "The Tiltyard" as "Old Sword."

Document or don't shoot your mouth off...

Acelynn

[This message has been edited by Acelynn (edited 06-24-2002).]

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 2:09 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Acelynn:
Now that's a real bit of fun. I especially like the part about ALL jousting horses were taught to rear at the beginning of their runs and also to automatically switch leads just prior to the moment of impact.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have heard for years that horses were made to change leads the moment before impact, but have never seen anything to support this. Where did this rumor come from?

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Acelynn · Post by **Acelynn** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:09 pm

Hi Hugh!

Whenever you find the documentation, I'd love to see it.

I have "heard" it from a number of people but never seen anything to support it.

Ace

------------------
I drink champagne when I'm happy and when I'm sad. Sometimes I drink when I'm alone. When I have company I consider it obligatory. I trifle with it if I'm not hungry and drink it when I am. Otherwise I never touch it--unless I'm thirsty.

Jeffrey Hedgecock · Post by **Jeffrey Hedgecock** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:23 pm

I have gone through all of Sidney Anglo's material on use of lance on horse, and neither Monte nor Duarte mention the lead change idea. They also don't specify which lead a horse should be on at all. They don't talk about canter lead at all.

------------------
Cheers,

Jeffrey Hedgecock,
Armourer
Maitre of The Red Company-1471
http://www.historicenterprises.com

Acelynn · Post by **Acelynn** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 3:54 pm

Hello Jeffrey,

Good to see you here! I was hoping someone like you would pipe up.

I know all the modern challenges of flying lead changes and the purposes they serve, but never for the life of me could I come up with any "reason" or "proof" of Mr. Cross's assertions. I'm glad to know you have not either, especially given what is probably your greater input of research time. Too many modern horse competitions take up mine!

Ace

------------------
I drink champagne when I'm happy and when I'm sad. Sometimes I drink when I'm alone. When I have company I consider it obligatory. I trifle with it if I'm not hungry and drink it when I am. Otherwise I never touch it--unless I'm thirsty.

[This message has been edited by Acelynn (edited 06-24-2002).]

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 5:20 pm

Ace and Jeff,

Thank you both for your input on this. It has bothered me for a long time. I grew up on horses and thought I had a pretty good understanding of how they work, and for the life of me I couldn't find a good reason for this, but could never get to the bottom of it from historical sources. Of course, it's always easier to prove a positive than a negative, but it sounds as if you have covered this pretty well.

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Gundo · Post by **Gundo** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 6:21 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Halberds:
Bascott:
How in the world can one hammer a cold truck or car leaf spring flat?
Micro factures aside, the energy required is excessive.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was me, and it's not my essay, it's Cross'.

As to cutting your stock: Yes a torch will bung your heat treat. So will grinding if you don't go terribly slowly, and probably even then. you probably should have bought annealed stock, made your blade, then had it treated [or done the treat yourself if you prefer].

Not that I've done it myself, but logic, etc.

------------------
Gundobad,
Wise Ogre Armory

'Soylens viridis homines est.'

A position worth taking, is worth defending.

Stephen · Post by **Stephen** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 6:55 pm

I am a amateur jouster at best. I have been jousting off and on for several years. I was taught by a nice gentlmen in Ca. and learned from several others since then. I have been told of many different types and styles and I even took myself to dressage classes to better understand the riding better. I am not a great rider but I consider myself a safe jouster for myself my horse and more over my opponent and his horse. Sooo here is the question I have? The challeges and flying lead changes I have dealt with have been while in a posting type stride for myself and my horse. I have found them completely useless in the tilt because I do not post when I tilt. I also use a wide tree aussie saddle and that kinda makes it hard as well :-)

Should I be doing some sort of different movement before strike of lance on shield?
Any info would be uch appreciated. Thanks.

JJ Shred · Post by **JJ Shred** » Mon Jun 24, 2002 9:05 pm

With Merlin, I'd start him on the lead for the direction I was going to turn to, normally you turn right after your run. Now 9 times out of 10 he'd get excited (he loves to joust) and would break into a gallop, but never a "flying lead change" which is at the canter, at a posting trot it's the "diagonal". The "flying" part refers to the beast switching leads according to a directional change (ie - figure "8") in stride rather than a set-up lead in one direction. You teach your horse lead changes in a figure 8 by dropping to a trot, then picking up the opposite direction and slowly shortening the amount of trot until it is done "in the air" (or flying) within a stride.
I have never seen any mention in period writings of lead changes, but if you hit a sharp turn on the wrong lead, you'll roll your horse. I did when Merlin switched on me once. I think these things aren't mentioned, because they are common knowledge, and in a horse-based society, it was unnecessary to point out the obvious.
(1700 lbs. of horse, full armour, full gallop - god I miss him.)

------------------
Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"

[This message has been edited by Bascot (edited 06-24-2002).]

Acelynn · Post by **Acelynn** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 7:49 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Should I be doing some sort of different movement before strike of lance on shield?
Any info would be uch appreciated. Thanks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Want a really honest opinion?

Get yourself back to that dressage coach and build a strong independent seat. That's what will carry you through when other jousters come off. Have your coach take away your reins and stirrups, get the horse on a lunge line and stay that way until your balance allows you to walk, trot, canter and jump that way. Then you are prepared for anything because your balance and your seat will keep you with your horse and in the saddle.

The challeges and flying lead changes I have dealt with have been while in a posting type stride for myself and my horse.

Well for one thing, a flying lead change can only occur in the canter (or gallop or hand gallop or lope, depending upon your discipline and how you were taught the names of a horse's gait). If you were posting, you should have been doing it at the trot, and I'm assuming what you are referring to is changing your diagonal. Tradition has you rising to the post while having the horse on the inside rein IE when the horse's inside shoulder is rising, so are you. Changing direction while posting requires you to sit one stride and resume your posting with the NEW inside rein. (This is what dressage riders refer to as a "change of rein" while at the "rising" trot.)

I have never seen any mention in period writings of lead changes, but if you hit a sharp turn on the wrong lead, you'll roll your horse.

Bascot is right in the sense that an unprepared rider and an unprepared horse can greatly jeopardize their balance and safety by such an action. Counter-canter (being on the outside or 'wrong' lead while turning) however is taught to dressage horses very early on. The reason is to instill greater balance and athletic ability, in addition to teaching obedience to the rider's aids over their natural inclination. OTOH, riding the counter-canter just feels plain unnatural.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I think these things aren't mentioned, because they are common knowledge, and in a horse-based society, it was unnecessary to point out the obvious.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quite possible, in my opinion, both with horsemanship and a lot of other things. "Everyone" knew, why record it?

Ace

------------------
I drink champagne when I'm happy and when I'm sad. Sometimes I drink when I'm alone. When I have company I consider it obligatory. I trifle with it if I'm not hungry and drink it when I am. Otherwise I never touch it--unless I'm thirsty.

[This message has been edited by Acelynn (edited 06-25-2002).]

Stephen · Post by **Stephen** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:00 am

Gentlmen, thank you very much for this info. have been doing the "no reins,no stirrups method" for a bit now with my coach and in the begining I felt like tony curtis in "The black shield of Falworth" ;-)

I knew of the changing direction as well as diagonal but have only been doing it for a short time. I know I let myself open to ridicule saying this since I have tilted a decent amount and I am now just learning basics such as these but I am trying to learn the right way at last. Once again thanks for the info. I here this from my coach and even though she is very good at what she does I get this "but she doesnt joust so how would she know if it the right thing to do" feeling at times. I know it is the correct way of riding but I have to realize it is also the correct way of riding in the tilt as well.
She does allot of endurance riding and says it is very important on the wear of the horse to know and use proper diagonals. Now I see why. You would tire the horse quicker not switching I would think.
Once again thanks for not ripping me a new arse for not knowing. :-)

[This message has been edited by Stephen (edited 06-25-2002).]

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 9:35 am

Hi All,

I ask again, can anyone please document posting, or flying lead changes (many horses do this naturaly) at the end of the tiltrail to the middle ages?. Aycelyn, you give good advice for the rider, although I would reccommend it bareback, which is what I have been doing, and is from several German nationals who are equaestrians the more traditional European practise. I know for a fact that posting to the trot is only practised in Europe from the late 17th cenrtury onward, and is not a part of any Medieval riding manual (it surely isn't in Duarte, which my wife is translating). It would be impossible to practise in a war saddle or field saddle, and while it could be done by someone in a normal riding saddle of the era, there is no indication it was.

Can anyone document the custom of a hard turn (or a turn before stopping) at the end of the run to the middle ages? I do not think you can, as Rennaisance Italian paintings with perspective showing the subject show the yard the tilt being practised in to extend well beyond the tilt rail. Andy Dean, the chief Equestrian Interpretor of the Royal Armouries in setting up training excersises for me at the beginning of this month emphasised bringing the horse to a halt in a straight line as being essential to the practise, as well as holding the horses head off to a slight angle to the right, so as not to foul the weapon.

I am almost positive the turn at the end of a run is a Renn Fair invention, due to attempting the joust in a smaller space than historically done, and to add 'dramatics' to the event.

------------------
Bob R.

Winterfell · Post by **Winterfell** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:10 am

Ok now that I got all the Horse folks together here it seems.
Does any jousting group use this "alley" jousting range that Mr. Cross talks about?
I have seen jousting companies use only the single tilt barrier, not the three fences thing that he mentioned. I hope I am making sense. Where he is talking about one center fence between the horses, and then two outer fences on each side so the horse is boxed in.
Is that a common or uncommon practice?

------------------
"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics

Jon Marshal · Post by **Jon Marshal** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:16 am

We use a center rail but no "alleys" or "funnels" and unfortunately a short arena.

------------------
Jason Jenkins
AKA Sir Jon Marshal at the NorthWest Renaissance Festival

[This message has been edited by Jon Marshal (edited 06-25-2002).]

Winterfell · Post by **Winterfell** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:24 am

Second question. Since I do not joust

What do you use for lance constuction and have you seen these and has anyone ever used them?
http://www.varmouries.com/tilt_13.html

------------------
"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics

Jon Marshal · Post by **Jon Marshal** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 10:48 am

The Seattle Knights Troupe just started using the Valentine lances recently but I have not seen them in action yet. We use hemlock closet rod that you would buy at the hardware store cut for break-away, since we joust for show. We just got a couple of vamplates from Patrice to make them look and work like lances.

------------------
Jason Jenkins
AKA Sir Jon Marshal at the NorthWest Renaissance Festival

Acelynn · Post by **Acelynn** » Tue Jun 25, 2002 12:24 pm

I ask again, can anyone please document posting,

Now chef, I was talking to Stephen about things in his modern training methods. The posting reference was to THAT, no-one here claimed it was medieval

As it was explained to me by my dressage gurus, posting developed as a result of the gait used by the post riders on the post chaise horses towards the end of the 17th and early 18th centuries. Hence the terms "posting" or "to post" at the trot. Yes posting would be ridiculous and near impossible in a war saddle of the 15th century because your legs are straight down in long stirrups. Posting requires a bend in the knee and a shorter stirrup length, aside from the fact a 15th century saddle is also made in such a way as to prevent you posting to the pommel in the modern sense.

flying lead changes (many horses do this naturaly) at the end of the tiltrail to the middle ages?

We already pretty much settled the lead change thing to as none of us can find anything to prove it

though it is Matthew Cross who claims it was done at the "moment of impact".

Aycelyn, you give good advice for the rider, although I would reccommend it bareback, which is what I have been doing, and is from several German nationals who are equaestrians the more traditional European practise.

Yes, I was taught (by European trainers) that way too, but NEVER before a rider had good enough balance to prevent them from uncontrollably bouncing up and down on the horse's back and causing it to be sore. Once Stephen progresses to that point in his training, hopefully his teacher will do the same. Before that point, it only damages the horse's back and a rider's confidence.

Andy Dean, the chief Equestrian Interpretor of the Royal Armouries in setting up training excersises for me at the beginning of this month emphasised bringing the horse to a halt in a straight line as being essential to the practise, as well as holding the horses head off to a slight angle to the right, so as not to foul the weapon.

It does seem modern dressage has retained many of the principles of medieval training. A horse learning to complete a square balanced halt in a straight line is basic training for a training level dressage horse. Pushing a horse to the outside rein (once they have proper balance) also increases their athletic ability--something I'm sure the old Masters probably learned as a by product of preventing weapon fouling.

I am almost positive the turn at the end of a run is a Renn Fair invention, due to attempting the joust in a smaller space than historically done, and to add 'dramatics' to the event.

I think we're all pretty much with you on that one!

Once again thanks for not ripping me a new arse for not knowing.

Stephen, a real horseperson will never rip someone when their mistake is out of not yet knowing

I have spent my life around horses and am honored that my friends do refer to me as a "horsewoman" not just a rider. But I will tell you that a real horse person learns something every day and will always know that nothing regarding these beloved critters of ours is ever set in stone. Well I would say there are two things set in stone: 1. there is always more to learn and 2. we love our animals like our children.

Ace

------------------
I drink champagne when I'm happy and when I'm sad. Sometimes I drink when I'm alone. When I have company I consider it obligatory. I trifle with it if I'm not hungry and drink it when I am. Otherwise I never touch it--unless I'm thirsty.