Questions on making a leather gorget

[Cat]

Hey guys,

I need some help with making leather "gorgets" for the collared mantles I make. I have been looking at gorget pictures, and I don't think their design will work how I need it to. Now I realize that the way I need mine to be made is probably not historically accurate, but in order to get it to work right, I will need to make changes to the typical gorget design.

Here's the thing - I know nothing about making actual gorgets, and I only know very little about working with leather. The things I have made have been more like a wide leather collar. I want to make something that looks and protects more like a real gorget, but can still accomodate an attached padded liner.

Here's a pic of the collars I have made in the past:

[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/747693/leathercollar.JPG[/img]

[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/747693/leathercollar2.JPG[/img]

I would like to change the shape of the collar so that it comforms more to the shoulders and so that it covers what it needs to like a real gorget does. The problem is that I don't really know what it's supposed to cover. (vertabrae numbers mean nothing to me BTW - I have no idea which vertabrae are what numbers).

I also want to be able to still attach a padded liner, so I need the design to accomodate that as well. I would like to be able to have the gorget buckle at the sides instead of just having one slit, but I think the overlap at that point would make it hard to attach a liner. I think there would be a gap between the leather and the padding at the point of overlap. Do you think that would be a problem? I think it would look "messy", but maybe it would still be functional.

I would also like to harden the leather so that it can be protective as possible, but I don't know anything about that either.

So, I guess I need a simple gorget pattern that will work for what I need, and tips on making a gorget from that pattern would be greatly appreciated. I would also like to know what thickness of leather I should use. Since it will be covered in maille (like in the second pic), is 8 to 10 ounce sufficient if it's hardened? Could I use 7 to 9 ounce hardened? I would like to cut down on the thickness as much as possible so that I could make the whole thing taller in order to cover more, unless there is a way to cut it out at the front of the neck to allow the wearer to be able to look down without it digging into their neck or hitting the jaw bone, but still be protective.

Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks so much!
Cat

[Cat]

Oh, and also - I would be willing to commission a pattern if there is someone who thinks they can make one for what I need. If you are interested in drafting a pattern, please email me and let me know about how much it would cost, and we can also discuss the details of the pattern itself.

Thanks,
Cat

[freiman the minstrel]

Cat,

I hesitate to say anything, because you are a far better armorer than I am, but I might have a few suggestions. I can't do armor half as well as you, but I have made a lot of gorgets.

If I get anything terribly wrong, somebody will correct me, so that will be OK.

First (off the top of my head) if you are fighting in a gorget, you want it to cover the neck and throat, the soft spot in the middle of the collar bone (at the top of the sternum) and the part of the spine that is raised in the back when you hang your head foreward. It isn't necessarily required, but I got hit on the top of the spine about a week ago, and the feeling of your spine "whipping" will send you off to replace your gorget almost every time.

Here's a pattern for a gorget that somebody sent me a link to not too long ago.

http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~serpent/sca/gorget/

If you make the outer shell in cardboard (which was tricky for me until I took it to a xerox machine that enlarged) it should teach you everything you need to know about the shape of a gorget.

As for hardening, I am not positive that it is required at all. If I recall correctly, a ventail/drape is fine by itself, so the gorget built in to the inside is effectively gravy.

About the only other thing I know about hardening is that wax hardened leather wont take glue. Try Cariadoc's water hardening essay (I think it's called "the perfect armour".

Well, that should be enough until Animal and Ulleig come along with REAL information for you.

you do beautiful work.

freiman

[Cat]

Freiman,
Thank you very much for your kind comments! It means alot to me!

Thank you also for that pattern!! I think that may just do the trick! It's even got the padding!! WooHooo! It doesn't appear to be overlapped at the side where the slit is, so that will work just fine.

Thank you SOOOOOO much!!!!!
Cat

Ps. WoooHoooooooooooooooooo!

[deBlakstan]

A gorget is generally required beneath maile because it is flexible and usually won't stop a good thrust. Gorgets tend to be fairly personal as there are many neck sizes out there. There is a pattern here on the archive that works fairly well (http://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/gorget_ab/) and should work for attaching maile to, as well. Remember when you harden the leather that the gorget should be oval shaped (rather like a race track) not circular. As was stated earlier, the hollow of the throat must be covered by the gorget and if you reach back and feel on your back, just below your neck, (it helps if you bend your head forward) anything that you feel sticking out should be covered. I would engineer it so that these remain covered when you lean your head forward since these are really easy bones to break.

Cameron
mka Kerry Pratt

[Cat]

Kerry,
Thank you for the tips! I am glad you mentioned about keeping the vertabrae covered even when the head is bent down, because i would have forgotten to take that into account until I had the whole thing made. (I have done that SO many times...and I feel so stupid each time I do it)

For the oval shape, how do you know how "oval" to make it? For instance, my neck seems pretty round, and if I made too much of an oval, it would be too tight on the sides and gappy in the front and back. With enough use, will the hardened leather conform to the person's neck shape?

Thanks so much!
Cat

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

Hey Cat, I got a quasi spanish collar gorget made out of leather that has a padded liner (but the outside is suede so it has duct tape covering it right now). Let me know if you still need pics. Mine has little alum. plates under the flappy part (light alum, can bend with my hand).

[Cat]

Oswyn,
I would love to see pics if you don't mind posting them! At this point, I would like to see as many examples as I can so I can figure out what will work best.

I have made a cardboard mock up from the pattern that Freiman posted, and I have to say that I am getting excited about working on these! Someone else also sent me a pattern for an "S" shaped collar (the curves of the "S" follow the contours of the shoulders) that I want to try also.

Here's a pic of the mock up I did:

[img]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-6/747695/gorgetproto.JPG[/img]


This is gonna be FUN! Maybe I can branch out and start selling gorgets as well as maille. That way I will have at least one product that is closer to being historically accurate (being made out of more period materials). If I can get these going, and then begin on practicing with riveted maille, maybe I can get to the point where most of my items will be historically accurate. Ooooo that would be nice! I really think I would feel like I had accomplished something if I got to that point.

Anyway, thank you all so much for the info so far! Any other patterns or suggestions are most welcome!

Cat

[deBlakstan]

Cat,

Perhaps mildly triangular would be a more accurate shape than oval. Most men's necks are fairly flat in the back and have a pointy adam's apple in the front. That isn't completly right but it is closer than circular.

Cameron