More specific gorget questions and seeking opinions

[Kat_H]

Here's what I could find on spring-pin closures:

This one is a combination of spring-pin and keyhole closure.
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... spring+pin

More description, but no pics:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... spring+pin

One last pic, again of the combo keyhole and spring-pin:
http://www.rustning.se/uploads/photos/374.jpg

The thing with these closures is that they require overlap and are designed for steel. Adapting them to leather is going to be problematic from what I can see - I've found several references to the pin being welded on, for example. You'd need to be able to make your keyhole rivet (dunno what metalworking skills and tools you have). The leather would have to be hardened to just the right springiness. If freiman is right, then the accuracy of the closures is a moot point, and you can do whatever works.

If I were in your shoes...

Since you've already sewn the piece together, and hardening it at this point would make it impossible to get on and off without further modification (like cutting it open on the other side and messing up that nice stitching job), I'd finish it up unhardened and sell it as a costume/LARP piece.

When you want to try a hardened one, make it in two separate halves (with or without overlap, depending on how you want the connections), and connect them with a hinge on one side and a closure on the other, or two closures. Doing the room-temp-soak and bake method, you can put wood, paper products, and cloth in your oven - ever read Farenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury? 451F is the temperature at which paper combusts. The cloth needs to be 100% cotton - synthetics may melt.

[rameymj]

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Articles/Perfect_Armor_Improved.htm

Agree that the leather looks a bit thin for unhardened.

For SCA/Kingdom of Caid:
C. Neck Armor
The neck, throat, larynx, cervical vertebrae and first thoracic vertebra of the fighter shall be covered by a minimum of one
of the following:
1. A plate gorget or gorget of rigid material, lined with at least 1/4â€Â

[rameymj]

http://www.daviddfriedman.com/Medieval/Articles/Perfect_Armor_Improved.htm

Agree that the leather looks a bit thin for unhardened.

For SCA/Kingdom of Caid:
C. Neck Armor
The neck, throat, larynx, cervical vertebrae and first thoracic vertebra of the fighter shall be covered by a minimum of one
of the following:
1. A plate gorget or gorget of rigid material, lined with at least 1/4â€Â

[freiman the minstrel]

Since you've already sewn the piece together, and hardening it at this point would make it impossible to get on and off without further modification (like cutting it open on the other side and messing up that nice stitching job)

Kat_H,

I have found that this is not the case. Wax Hardened leather is still flexible enough to open wide enough to slip around the neck. It is about as flexible as hard plastic. Leather hardened this way and backed with a half inch of closed cell foam is safe.

Admittedly, I do like the unhardened leather to be a little thicker than the stuff that Cat is using, but this is a learning pattern, not a piece for the list field. Cat is experimenting in order to improve the gorgets that are integral with the maille mantles she sells. She has stated that she might offer custom built gorgets for sale at some future date, but she is not sure.

Please accept my word on this.

freiman

[Kat_H]

Wax Hardened leather is still flexible enough to open wide enough to slip around the neck.

Interesting - in many of the posts by people who have hardened leather, they describe their desirable results as "rock hard". Others seem to think that it still needs a good deal of flex. Since I don't do heavy fighting in the SCA, I have no idea what level of hardness is suited for such. It's almost like we (as in armorers in general) need some objective measure of leather hardness in order to discuss it in detail.

... but this is a learning pattern, not a piece for the list field. Cat is experimenting in order to improve the gorgets that are integral with the maille mantles she sells.

Yes, I know, that's one of the reasons why I suggested to her just to finish it up without hardening and sell it as a costume piece, even though I did not specifically state it in my previous post.

Kat

[Cat]

Kat,
Thank you SO much for taking the time to look all of that up for me! That was very kind of you! It could possibly work for a leather gorget if a metal plate was riveted at the at the point where the edges meet, maybe one plate on the inside and one on the outside on the end of each piece (or rather on either side of the slit).

If leather gorgets were never used, then historical accuracy is out the window anyway, so I would probably just use straps and buckles. I have to admit that I am disappointed that they were not used. I was hoping to be able to offer a historically accurate item (or as close as possible) for once. Well, it has been fun to make anyway.

Rameymj,
As Frieman said, this is just a test piece to see if I could do it. I just got back from Tandy, and I bought a side of veg tanned that's 3/16" thick (at it's thickest). If I make another gorget, I will use that PLUS harden it as well. The absolute LAST thing I want is to have someone get hurt using something I made, which is why I am not totally sure I am going to make these. I am not sure how to overcome that particular fear.

Thank you for posting the regs. That will be very helpful to me! I am not in the SCA, so this would have been something I needed to look up before I made these for sale.

For the next one, I will rework the cardboard pattern and cut it down the second side. I didn't want to do that to this one as it was already cut out and everything. I also decided not to harden this one as it's likely to behave differently than the thicker stuff and I didn't want to ruin this piece before I had a chance to get it all put together. Having this in 3D form in front of me will be a good learning tool for making improvements on the next one. That, and I now know the pattern works.

Frieman,
Thanks for the painting tips! I will give that a try on one of my test pieces. Painting this by hand with a tiny brush would take forever.

Thank you again everyone! I hope to get the bevor put on tomorrow, and I am going to dye it all and put the edge coat stuff on it. I will post pics in a new thread when I get it done.

Konstantin - I bought the edge beveller. I bought it just for you.

Cat

[Konstantin the Red]

. . .does anyone have any recommendations on how to make the scrollwork stand out a little more (aside from taking a one-haired brush and painting it)?

Antiquing is what that product is called; you can find it among the dyes. Sort of "instant patina" for an aged effect. It's a dilute stain, and Freiman described perfectly how to use it: apply and then wipe off with a sponge, leaving the darkening effect in the tooled depressions. It's a good way to get any tooling (and your effort's come out very nicely indeed) to stand right out, and may be used with other dyes and paints. It tends to give everything a slight darkening unless you use sealer as a resist -- for the overall effect of the stuff, imagine the varnish on an old master's painting -- a little browner, a little darker.

Let's see, how better to use the edge groover? Try holding it at a consistent angle all the way around the edge of a piece. Wobbles tend to make trouble. Don't push in too hard on the edge as you use it, either; that should permit it to parallel the edge neatly. Leather tooling generally calls for exactly repeating a hold, an angle, the force of a mallet blow -- a subtle physical skill that takes experience to master.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

Be aware Cat, that is also just for that particular kingdom. Everyone must adhere to the basic Society wide level of protection, but individual kingdoms can make stronger laws about what can be worn. I believe that at a Society level, the leather does not have to be double layered or hardened, but individuals might need it to be depending on their kingdom. Have to run out the door, anyone else mind posting gorget society mins?

[Konstantin the Red]

This is probably the most useful link: http://www.sca.org/chivarts.html All the Kingdoms have their armor standards linked there.

Go to the SCA site: http://www.sca.org/ -->Activities in the SCA. It's easy navigating.

[Cat]

Oswyn,
Thank you for pointing that out. It would be nice if I could make one that covered them all.

Konstantin,
Thank you for the links. I will check those out to make sure I have everything covered.

Thanks again!!
Cat