rivet size

[Patton Lives]

Need some help selecting appropriate rivets for various jobs

http://www.rjleahy.com/Store/rivets/trvr.htm

Now, what I'll be trying to construct in the next coming year are going to be 14th-15th century head to toe not counting jobs that require welding, and possibly some spangenhelms,kettlehats norman nasal ect whatever I can get a pattern for and feel like trying to make.

Whats a good size selection to shoot for, length and diameter wise, and would it matter if they are rounded or flat? Is one type more correct for a given type of armor vs another(legs, arms, sabatons, vambraces, pauldrons, strap attachment) (As an example Jeff Hedgecock uses distinctly different rivets on his legs vs his arms)

[Armour Design]

I find 4 x 4 mm. round head works for pretty well everywhere. Very Occasionally I use slightly longer.

Mike

[Konstantin the Red]

We find that various rivet head shapes suit the rivets for different things. Flathead tinners' rivets have a low profile, though a flat head on the outside usually shouts "modern." Putting that flat head on the inside of something like a barrel or great helm means it's convenient to pein the shank on the outside of the work where you have room to swing your hammer. You put the rivet head so it's backed up on the inside by something solid like an anvil horn or some stake or even a hunk of thick bar that will reach. A crowbar clamped in a bench vise will answer the purpose. For a really neat job of peining the rivet over, use a rivet set.

The other modern rivet head is the dome head. This is a very strong rivet with that extra metal up there. The hemispherical dome head is a modern shape; medieval dome rivets were curved up there, but their dome was flatter. A little work with a file will make a modern dome a medieval one.

Shank diameter: 3/16 for most things. 1/8 for fine stuff like gaunt fingers. Using suitable common nails happens a lot, and costs less than getting rivets. This is popular for gaunt articulation, and such rivets get used as flatheads would. Shank length: usually 3/8, sometimes to 1/2 inch. You are usually only putting together two layers of twelve gauge at the most, and all you want sticking through is about one diameter's worth of extra to pein over. A likely situation in a limb joint is two layers of 16 plus a washer and just a little slack to let the pieces turn freely.

Steel rivets are very good for articulation and a must for SCA helmets. Brass rivets are very good for attaching strapping, and make excellent accents to steel harness. Brigandines, at their very best, are assembled with brigandine-nayles like upholstery tacks on steroids, but a functional brig may be assembled with the smallest, shortest roofing nails you can get, either copper or galvanized. Regrettably, they are larger than brig-nayles, so use these with early-type large brig scales (dish these a little) to keep some sort of proportion. Watch for and remove any mold flashing from beneath the heads of these nails, too; it will cut up your brigandine's shell garment and wreck that part of the brig. You probably remember the people around here going in on a custom order with a nail manufacturer for decorative-headed brigandine-nayles. They made some nice pieces with the things. Why didn't they use rivets? Too overkill, too heavy, and too dang expensive: every plate is sporting its nayles in little triangular clusters of three for redundancy, so you're talking at least six nayles per scale, and likely nine on the bigger ones. Adds up.

[Patton Lives]

Thanks guys. That gives me some good direction to go on. I mean to go over Murdock's legs he purchased from Historic Enterprises, the articulation on those is the best I have seen on a piece of armor yet, I dont know why I never inspected them more closely before now

Where do you usually get the washers from to make a crisp, non-clanky articulation? Just plain old washers matching the rivet diameter from home depot?

[Konstantin the Red]

Plain old washers, yes, though see also below.

To get a precise clearance for good articulation, no more than needed and no less, we make a shim of a strip of thin metal with an inch-deep slot in one end, so the end is forked. The slot is as wide as a rivet shank, and the strip is about 24 gauge or tin-can metal. To use, put your rivet through both pieces of metal, put the washer on, and slip the forked end of the shim underneath the washer. Pein the rivet down pretty firmly onto all this. Slip the shim out. Voilà, the rivet is loose enough to permit the pieces to turn on each other about the rivet's axis.

WRT washers, a lot of us are starting to take a leaf from Brian Price's book and are doing washers period-style (and cheaper, too!) -- we're punching our own out of washer-width strips of scrap steel, or sometimes pipe strap, cut rather roughly to shape: handcut washers with a hole punched in their middles. Neat round washers are a good indicator of modern make or of restoration of missing bits. Your call.

[morristh]

For what its worth Drachus, I got domed rivets from 1/16th up to 3/8ths from them. I believe they were long ones in the order of 3/4 inchs. They are easy to nip to length and that way I only needed one length. I also got some aluminum rivets (hardened) for some of the aluminum armor I have. I cut my own washers, either from scraps of 16 ga steel using the beverly or in areas where I need one a smaller size, I punch them out with my Whitney 45, then punch a hole for the rivet itself. I used to buy a lot of different sized washers, but half the time I didnt have the size I wanted anyway.

I need to order some hardened Brass ones for the looks.

TIm

[Konstantin the Red]

For "Whitney 45" read "Whitney #5 Jr."

[morristh]

For "Whitney 45" read "Whitney #5 Jr."

Ah so the old one piece 45 no longer exists? I really like it because its cast metal, not pot steel.

Tim

[Konstantin the Red]

I didn't know there ever was a 45; I thought you had typoed. The No.5 Jr. will still handle about any sheet metal you're likely to use. They run fifty or sixty dollars nowadays, with a set of dies in several sizes and its case.

Searching on Whitney No. 45 led me to an online outfit named Skygeek that sells a Whitney 45 for about eighty bucks; no idea what it looks like, whether it's a bench or a portable. Nosing around on Roper Whitney of Rockford did not show me a No.45 -- but that No. XX looks to be very suited to armouring, for tasks that may be a bit much for the No.5.

[morristh]

I didn't know there ever was a 45; I thought you had typoed. The No.5 Jr. will still handle about any sheet metal you're likely to use. They run fifty or sixty dollars nowadays, with a set of dies in several sizes and its case.

Searching on Whitney No. 45 led me to an online outfit named Skygeek that sells a Whitney 45 for about eighty bucks; no idea what it looks like, whether it's a bench or a portable. Nosing around on Roper Whitney of Rockford did not show me a No.45 -- but that No. XX looks to be very suited to armouring, for tasks that may be a bit much for the No.5.

I got this in like 82 or 83. Its 2 pieces of grey cast metal, not tubular steel. I'll try and post a pic later. Its portable, has a case and dies etc. throats about 4-5 inchs.

Tim