New Gleann Abhann war rule.

Blackoak · Post by **Blackoak** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:16 pm

First things first, this will not be in effect for Gulf Wars.

We had out first fighter's collegium as a kingdom last weekend, and a new ruling was started. This is not set in stone, as our Earl Marshal Sir William is going to get feedback.

The rule is that if you loose your leg in combat, you are planted and can not "walk" on your knees.

I personally am not that crazy about it, as it takes you out of the fighting almost completely. We had 2 fighters legged about 5 feet from each other that could not engage each other. It really lends to the 'leg them & leave them' war mentality, as a shot to the leg is almost as bad as a killing blow.

Granted, our first experiment was with a small melee group of about 35. I am guessing that with larger numbers, you will have more chances to hit the occasional passerby. I guess we will see how it progresses.

Any other kingdoms have this type of rule? If so, what do you think about it. What is your opinion regardless, as I am sure Sir William is interested in any ideas or opinions.

Uric

BdeB · Post by **BdeB** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:20 pm

So what is the rational behind the ruling?

Blackoak · Post by **Blackoak** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:32 pm

Honestly, I am not that sure. Partly, I believe, to be more like an authentic injury. A person with a leg whacked would not be chasing opponents on his knees. I see that reasoning, but I also see the reasoning that this is NOT historical combat that we do. Hell, blood loss would stop you from fighting, and we don't use that.

Uric

Duke Icefalcon · Post by **Duke Icefalcon** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:58 pm

I get the feeling that some folks are simply doing everything in their means to ruin Gulf Wars. Years ago, this was the most FUN war there was. I go to all of the wars, for business and the pure pleasure of war.

The addition of some rediculous rules and active martialing have caused this to be painfully dreary. The participation of our kingdom and many others has dwindled due to the fact that it just is the worst war (rules wise) that one can attend.

I find this to be surprising. For the most part, the actual people who run the show (Ansteorran's, Trimarian's and Meridians) are some of nicest folks I have ever met in the SCA. I think it was the sheer personality of these folks that made is so fun in the first place.

So what happened?

Go back to the basics of the SCA and do not try to fix what is not broken would be my advice.

Happy Holidays to all!

Blackoak · Post by **Blackoak** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:11 pm

Your Grace, please read the very first line of my post.

Uric

Again, I am looking for input from others on this rule, even if you have not used it. I am just getting as much info for our EM as possible. Thanks.

Ceddie · Post by **Ceddie** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:13 pm

Blackoak wrote:First things first, this will not be in effect for Gulf Wars.

We had out first fighter's collegium as a kingdom last weekend, and a new ruling was started. This is not set in stone, as our Earl Marshal Sir William is going to get feedback.

The rule is that if you loose your leg in combat, you are planted and can not "walk" on your knees.

I personally am not that crazy about it, as it takes you out of the fighting almost completely. We had 2 fighters legged about 5 feet from each other that could not engage each other. It really lends to the 'leg them & leave them' war mentality, as a shot to the leg is almost as bad as a killing blow.

Granted, our first experiment was with a small melee group of about 35. I am guessing that with larger numbers, you will have more chances to hit the occasional passerby. I guess we will see how it progresses.

Any other kingdoms have this type of rule? If so, what do you think about it. What is your opinion regardless, as I am sure Sir William is interested in any ideas or opinions.

Uric

I think this would be a bad rule to set. To MY knowledge, no one else uses this rule and very few visitors to your Kingdom will follow it. It lends itself to a leg= a kill and that just won't hold up to the rest of the world.

If you guys want to play that way on your own... more power to ya. I think you'll be dissapointed if you want others to do the same.

Duke Icefalcon · Post by **Duke Icefalcon** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:14 pm

Let me pull my foot out of my mouth now....

I still stand on the subject of active martialling.

Sinister_Theo · Post by **Sinister_Theo** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:42 pm

I thought that in Ansteorra you could not move on your knees? I so perhaps their is a corolation?

Sir Wilhelm vonOstenbruke · Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:56 pm

I personally can't find one good thing about this proposed rule. I know it would be more "realistic" and all, but I'm in it for the fun and this would not be fun.

broinnfinn · Post by **broinnfinn** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:18 pm

Before this erupts into too much contention, I have it on very good authority that:

1. Yes, this rule was intended to make the combat more realistic (our current EM is a medical doctor and advocate of more realistic combat practices).
2. Yes, it is currently under review and may not be a permanent change to our conventions.
3. No, this will not be in effect at Gulf Wars.

Broinnfinn
Regina Gleann Abhann and Very Good Authority (TM)

adric · Post by **adric** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:37 pm

So just for claification two guys in tourney are both legged at the same time but drop just out of reach of each other. Both dead? Look at each other till site closes? Chuck swords at each other? And if ya'll are going with more realistic are lower leg shots coming back?

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:39 pm

In Ansteorra, in melee, if you are legged, you can drag yourself around. Slower than knee walking, but faster than not moving at all. In tourney, you cannot move, other than to briefly reposition.

Roger_de_Gilbert · Post by **Roger_de_Gilbert** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:33 pm

I have a two views on this.

1 Legs = Kill in the real world. I doubt an injury to the leg that was bad enough to cause you to be unable to stand would allow you to effectively defend youself against an armed and armoured foe.

2 Struck in the leg = penalty in simulated combat. Loss of position and mobility due to being struck in the leg is reasonable "game" penalty.

Roger

Blackoak · Post by **Blackoak** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 8:26 pm

Adric, this only applies to melee, not tourneys.

Thank you Your Majesty for extra clarification. I thought my original posts were clear on those, but thoughts tend to drift.

Again, the purpose was for opinion on the 'current' ruling from fighters in the Society. Especially those who may have experience with it, and the pros and cons to it. Not to cause contention.

Uric

Robert P. Norwalt · Post by **Robert P. Norwalt** » Tue Dec 06, 2005 10:29 pm

Well. If yer gonna do that, you may as well make it a bleed to death rule for res' battles. Say, two minutes, for a femoral artery? Less?

Christophe de Frisselle · Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:21 am

People have two legs. Just hobble around til you can hit someone or get hit in the other leg or would they frown on that.

Cedric · Post by **Cedric** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:17 am

I can think of nothing worse then being legged in a war and unable to even crawl around to try to find some way of getting back into the fight.

Might as well just make legged = death. I think I would "accidentally" fall on my sword whenever legged if this rule were in place.

Koredono · Post by **Koredono** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:45 am

I have a related question: while you might not be able to move on your knees, would you be prevented from using your weapon (or perhaps even a fellow combattant) as a crutch, or hopping about on your remaining good leg?

Personally, I think that most legged combattants are immobile enough as it is, without having any additional hindrances placed upon them.

Odo · Post by **Odo** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 6:37 am

Koredono wrote:Personally, I think that most legged combattants are immobile enough as it is, without having any additional hindrances placed upon them.

Agreed, in large battles the ebb and flow of unit movement easily makes the legged fighter a non-issue. In small battles (5 or 10 on a side) you often see a unit try to regroup around a legged fighter if they need the extra sword (they are losing or the legged fighter is a good one). The rule, although created with good intentions, is unneccessary and will cause many to just quit the field.

Odo

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 7:46 am

I understand realism. I think that sometimes our rules just don't need to reflect it. Every time a thread like this comes up, I post the same thing, and I think it's a good idea.

Our Society needs to have 2 sets of rules that are consistent across the society. We need to have "War" rules and we need to have "Grand Melee" rules. War rules would include things such as combat archery, death from behind, dead on the ground, and so on. Grand Melee would most certainly NOT. A large event could EASILY have war melees and grand melees. MOst of us would fight in both. Some would choose to fight only in wars and others would choose to fight only in grand melees. But at least the fighting in each scenario would be consistent.

WHY would we be fighting a war that allows combat archery but death from behind is "unchivalrous"? Come on! Anything I can do to keep MY guys alive and make HIS guys take dirt naps is at Good Thing (tm). As an example.

Realism rules such as this are fine to add to a scenario, but I think a bad notion for a general rule. If you want to make the SCA more realistic, I understand you have to start somewhere, but hey... I'd suggest starting somewhere that does not take fun away.

Adriano · Post by **Adriano** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:02 am

Seems like an unnecessary change to me. If you want to make SCA fighting more "realistic", I don't think that's the place to start.

carlyle · Post by **carlyle** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:32 am

Acted blows are, by their very nature, unrealistic. Tweaking the rules in an effort to make them more "real" is an excercise in speculative fantasy.

The best that can be hoped for with a rule change like this is to make playability more balanced. I agree with Odo that, in a melee scenario, "legged" combatants are sufficiently compromised. There is no need to handicap them further.

With regards... AoC

blackbow · Post by **blackbow** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 8:49 am

Blackoak wrote:Your Grace, please read the very first line of my post.

Uric

Again, I am looking for input from others on this rule, even if you have not used it. I am just getting as much info for our EM as possible. Thanks.

Them what's had one leg hit, by Society rules, still have the option of standing on one leg and hopping from place to place. If I had been one of those legged gentles with a target a few feet away, I would have upped on one leg and hopped over, stopped just out of range, offered to fight after I got settled, and settled down, and commenced to swinging.

As for WHY the rule of "no movement on your knees after being legged"...I don't know for sure, but one thing I DO know and that's that it sure does put a stop to any questions of whether or not the gentle on his knees is being corkscrewed.

Regards,

Jonathan Blackbow

Magnus The Black · Post by **Magnus The Black** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:32 am

In practice I do not feel its that bad. I'd like to see it used for a while. My 1st question regarding this was Gulf Wars as I was concerned about the war convention as I was informed the it would not change I see no other issue with it until we play with it for a while. I belive Sir William was going for something simular to the Ansterero convention and in the end I would imagine it may be that way.

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:59 am

Magnus The Black wrote:In practice I do not feel its that bad. I'd like to see it used for a while. My 1st question regarding this was Gulf Wars as I was concerned about the war convention as I was informed the it would not change I see no other issue with it until we play with it for a while. I belive Sir William was going for something simular to the Ansterero convention and in the end I would imagine it may be that way.

Eek, I hope he's not doing it for us. Ansteorra's probably the only kingdom that has the "can't move when you're legged", but for the most part, we're all ok with dem furriners doin it. Yall just weird, thassal.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:18 am

Jean Paul de Sens wrote:...but for the most part, we're all ok with dem furriners doin it. Yall just weird, thassal...

who are YOU calling "Dem Furriners" :twisted:

Seriously though, I can see the point the EM of Glenn Ahbann is trying to make. It is the same that has been hashed out here on this forum time and again. If you got sliced in the thigh hard enough to "cut through chainmaille" whether or not you would be dead, you would be incapacitated from continuing to fight over terrain.

My question is this. If said fighters of GA are no longer allowed to hobble/crawl around on their knees, will they be allowed to sit up on their knees when engaged? Or must they sit on their feet when engaged?

To my eyes if you can't crawl around you can't sit up on your knees and throw shots either. Both requiring the use of the thigh muscles that are supposed to be incapacitated. To allow one with out the other seems silly and weakens the point of the Marshal to make such a fighting convention.

Jasper · Post by **Jasper** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:25 am

gee I can rack up the kills in war then. Of course it will be me killing my legged team mates.

jester · Post by **jester** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 10:55 am

I agree with what Morgan and Carlyle have posted.

I think you will find that this rule doesn't give a lot of return for effort. Most fighters in the SCA have heard of historical authenticity and don't give a rat's ass about it. Trying to make them be more authentic is a losing proposition. All they see is someone cutting into their fun.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:00 am

I don't think that's exactly what Carlyle and I were saying. At all.

jester · Post by **jester** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:13 am

Morgan wrote:I don't think that's exactly what Carlyle and I were saying. At all.

No, it's not. I agree with the points you and Carlyle made. I also have my take on the subject.

Magnus The Black · Post by **Magnus The Black** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:15 am

Jean Paul de Sens wrote:
Eek, I hope he's not doing it for us. Ansteorra's probably the only kingdom that has the "can't move when you're legged", but for the most part, we're all ok with dem furriners doin it. Yall just weird, thassal.

Naw I doubt seriously he doin it for ya'll :lol:

I think its more of an authenticity thing and him looking at if from a docs viewpoint.

Ceddie · Post by **Ceddie** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:22 am

I don't know about a Dr. view point but I HAVE been "legged" in a real fight. (An axe handle to the inside of the knee.)
I was done.
no more fight.

If authenticity is your goal, call it a fight ender.
If we are going to be authentic, I want to shoulder check and leg sweep.

Gaston de Vieuxchamps · Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:32 pm

The problem here is that "realism" and "authenticity" do not mix well with "fighting from his knees". Pretty much as soon as you start fighting from your knees to simulate a leg injury you have to give up on any hint of "realism"

If an MD/Marshal wants to make rules that are less jarring to his medical sensibilities, I suggest 3 telling blows.

Gaston

Asbjorn Johansen · Post by **Asbjorn Johansen** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:21 pm

I like the implied thought behind the rules change, but I disagree with the solution. I'm worried that the average fighter may come to associate "authentic" with "less fun" which would make changes which better improve authenticity and are fun more difficult.

Asbjorn

St. George · Post by **St. George** » Wed Dec 07, 2005 1:25 pm

Hear! Hear! for Gaston's suggestion.

If you want to be realistic than the only option is to dump the whole fighting form your knees convention.

I we are going to play at sport with rules to govern "combat" then we need to get rid of the idea of realism- there is none. Arrows aren't nuclear and blows don't necessarily kill in one shot. If hit anywhere on the leg, you wouldn't just drop to your knees and keep going- we aren't mechs with leg armor points.

Making people unable to move on their knees in combat makes the game silly, and impractical if all that is left on the field are a bunch of guys who can't move to fight one another.

Alaric

New Gleann Abhann war rule.

New Gleann Abhann war rule.

Re: New Gleann Abhann war rule.