Black Prince/Pembridge Great Helm Pattern WANTED!

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:31 am

Hey folks,

Wanting to make a great helm, aiming for SCA quality but not getting my hopes too high! Need a pattern for the Prince Edward or Sir Pembridge great helms, please! I picked up a good sized piece of 14 gauge mild steel today, and now I just need to find some rivets and a pattern, have some patience and give it a go over the next week and a half of Christmas break!

Thanks in advance, and happy holidays!

-Gregory-

(EDIT: Yes, I can get a hold of TOMAR for the project. I can't recall whether definite guides for the initial patterns for either of these pieces are offered in the book, though. If so, please let me know, someone!)

Helm reconstructions by Valentine Armouries. Good stuff, but a tad thin for the costs!

[img]http://www.varmouries.com/vpics/cru_20b.jpg[/img]
-Edward the Black Prince's

[img]http://www.varmouries.com/vpics/cru_23.jpg[/img]
-Sir Pembridge's

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:38 am

You do realize the seeing out of an unmodified Pembridge won't be too great, right?

Barrels or greats are ultra simple to pattern: lay hold of a fistful of old manila folders, a box of paper fasteners, scissors and tape. Draw, cut out, and test-fit a manila-folder mockup of the helm. If you cut too much off something, no problem: that's what the tape is for, to stick extra bits on. You can redo the worked-over pieces as final, one-piece pattern parts.

The sloped plates of barrel helms and greats have curved lines for the top and bottom edges, not straight. The straight-up-and-down plates of the bottom half will have straight edges at the tops of the plates, as well as the contoured edges below.

Since you're not welding the top cap from two halves, I think, the cap will be roughly a teardrop shape, the point forward, though your posterboard mockup will be two halves, taped together along the center crease. The exact shape of the top cap will be defined by the curvatures of the top edge of the forehead/occiputal plate(s). Dish the cap, crease it fore and aft, and there you are.

The Black Prince's greathelm isn't precisely a Pembridge, though the two are more or less contemporaneous -- the Pembridge helm and the two related helms likely from the same shop that survive are not of the five-plate construction, but are of two large hoops and a top cap.

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:50 am

You people really should visit the pattern archive.

http://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/greathelm_sinric/

is a pattern for one.

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 4:00 am

Hey Konstantin,

You do realize the seeing out of an unmodified Pembridge won't be too great, right?

Indeed. I plan on wearing a bascinet under most circumstances, although having one of these, well, to have, will be nice! The added plus of possibly having it to fight in will just be that much nicer! I also just need something to make, anyway. (Okay, that's a lie. I have plenty of projects lying around. I just WANT something NEW to make!)

Barrels or greats are ultra simple to pattern: lay hold of a fistful of old manila folders, a box of paper fasteners, scissors and tape. Draw, cut out, and test-fit a manila-folder mockup of the helm. If you cut too much off something, no problem: that's what the tape is for, to stick extra bits on. You can redo the worked-over pieces as final, one-piece pattern parts.

Indeed, I was going to do some paper patterns before I got started on it. Thanks for the tips on construction. Hadn't thought of the manilla folders. I'd been buying expensive construction sheet! :cry:

The sloped plates of barrel helms and greats have curved lines for the top and bottom edges, not straight. The straight-up-and-down plates of the bottom half will have straight edges at the tops of the plates, as well as the contoured edges below.

Looking at other patterns of great helms, I know what you mean about that. I suppose my challenge will be putting the right curve on it, which is why I was looking specifically for a pattern for either of these pieces. I'll end up doing whichever I get my hands on a good pattern for first, I suppose. If I don't get a really good one for either, I'll probably do the Black Prince, since I fancy it more.

Since you're not welding the top cap from two halves, I think, the cap will be roughly a teardrop shape, the point forward, though your posterboard mockup will be two halves, taped together along the center crease. The exact shape of the top cap will be defined by the curvatures of the top edge of the forehead/occiputal plate(s). Dish the cap, crease it fore and aft, and there you are.

*Turns on mental note-taker.* 'Erm... Check, check... Annnnd... Check!

The Black Prince's greathelm isn't precisely a Pembridge, though the two are more or less contemporaneous -- the Pembridge helm and the two related helms likely from the same shop that survive are not of the five-plate construction, but are of two large hoops and a top cap.

Wow. This just made me feel silly. Period. I've loved these helms for ages, and for the life of me I've NEVER considered that the Pembridge is three rather than five pieces. Incredible. I don't know how that just smacked me in the face so suddenly, but it stings!

Thanks sir!

You people really should visit the pattern archive.

Yup... And you people should read more carefully. I'm looking for patterns for these exact helms, if I ever get lucky enough to find one. That thing that Sinric posted looks lovely, as do the other ones on the gallery, but they don't look exactly like either of these helms. I'm wanting to know if I can get detailed images of a template I can use to cut out pieces of flat steel before I start working on the helms in question.

My guess is that I will in fact have to end up using a pattern such as the one you posted and do some slight modifications to it to get it right. BUT, my hopes were that I could get something more definite, so that my inexperienced hand wouldn't have to tinker with anything beyond sizing it to my own needs.

-Gregory-

Justin Livio Guidi · Post by **Justin Livio Guidi** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:17 am

Hm! Something new!

Now, I assume you're now wanting to attempt the Pembridge? Well before anything - heed my words!
Possibly the only smart thing I did before I started cutting metal for the Bolzano was that I found the pattern I wanted and tested it with posterboard. If you do get a pattern, make sure it's well fitted and not gigantic like mine. I got I nice big black 3'x4' sheet of posterboard for $.99, and you're going to need at least that much metal too, just in case you under cut (always overcut, just don't overdo it.:p) Buy one box of 3/8'' steel rivets from rjleahy.com -don't try to be a hero and buy 1/4'' like me... :oops:

You're definitely going to have make or buy a dish, and you're going to have to have one before you begin, because you basically have to have the top portion of the helm before anything else - you build the rest of the helm off of it. I know Konstantine said it'd be wise to flute instead of weld, I have to say opposite fluting or creasing is pretty hard, I haven't gotten it right yet, so I say dish two separate pieces and weld (with that nice welder of yours) them together.

I'm guessing you bought mild? With that nasty black oxide all over it? You can get it off with vinegar, or you can sand it off, but you'll damage the surface and lose some of the gauge with it... yet again, that is something I did wrong. Drill breaths before forming, that's just a recommendation, you can do it with it already formed, it's just easier. And before you rivet it all together, sand and polish - don't give it a satin finish, it just rusts faster, shoot for a mirror. I left mine unfinished before I riveted together, and then I tried to go back and finish it... Argh! That wasn't fun to try to get right.

Now these are all of the things I did wrong, or didn't do at all. So take them into consideration... I didn't.

-Justin

*Didn't bother looking over it, sorry for grammatical errors and spelling.*

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 12:37 pm

Indeed, Justin, I'll be making a pattern. I said that in the post just above yours. Rivets, I already have the site, but I'm not sure about all of the specifics. 3/8ths body diameter is huge, though. I'm probably going to go with 1/4 inch. I suspect I'll go 1/2-5/8th" in length, as well.

Actually, I'll let you folks decide...

http://www.rjleahy.com/Store/rivets/trvr.htm

Which size should I get?

As for the dish, if I don't come up with anything ingenuitive in the next few days, I might start on a simpler helm, possibly based on the art from the Manesse Codex and contemporary great helms.

Cheers!

-Gregory-

Justin Livio Guidi · Post by **Justin Livio Guidi** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:06 pm

Whoa, sorry, not 3/8'' - I meant 3/16''. It was early, check the time... :lol:

and length - I got mine at 1/2'', that was far too long, I had to clip all of them. It really depends on how thick the stacked metal is, there's some type of formula floating around here about that. The only reason why I say not to use 1/4'' is because it just took too damn long to pein, and considering that I was peining them already inside of the helm, I was limited to how much space the blows were allowed to take.

But others will say different diameters, that's just the overall consensus of what people use.

It can be done, the dishing in all, it'll take some time too. You saw mine - and I spent some 30+ hours on it. Lol.

-Justin

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 1:54 pm

Okay, I'm glad I know about the length, now. I'll take it that getting 3/8ths won't be too bad. 14 gauge steel is 0.075" thick, and this particular sheet (where we used electronic calipers on it) is 0.074." So, right on the money. That times two is .15", which is less than half of .375", and that's 3/8ths.

So, I should have the room to spare without having to fiddle with the rivet shafts. 3/16th's for the diameter sounds more like it, too!

Also, after some debate this morning, basing my first great helm on an EXACT piece is likely to end in disaster. I can come close, but probably not close enough for my own personal tastes. So, I'm going to loosely model my own piece on one of the helms.

I've also realized that I don't have any pictures of the original helm of Edward's to know what the top looks like! I'll have to borrow ToMAR for that, Justin, if I do choose his helm.

-Gregory-

deBlakstan · Post by **deBlakstan** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:03 pm

I believe that there is a pattern for this particular helmet in either "The Best of the Hammer" or in the "Known World Handbook". I have both of these in storage right now but I will try to look for them later today.

Cameron

Nick D · Post by **Nick D** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:35 pm

My first piece was a meld of the Pembridge and Black Prince, and I think it came out pretty well. I'll post pictures of it later tonight. I had measurements of the Black Prince to work off of that were instrumental in reproducing it, which also means the helm is quite large.

I made a posterboard mockup, but I found this to be only so helpfull, so I made sure there was a bit of extra, which was easy to trim to fit. I suppose as I gain experience I'll get better, but it worked out good. I also built it from the bottom up, which goes against the common wisdom, but again, I found it worked just fine, especially since I didn't know quite how big to make the cap plate.

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 2:57 pm

Ok I actually meant for you to use the pattern on the pattern archive as a starting point and modify it to suit.

Also on the rivit length don't forget there is at least one place where the rivit has to go through 4 layers of steel. I always get 1/2" length. Sure I usually have to trim them but they're always long enough for anything I decide to do. Don't take long to trim. I just use a medium sized set of bolt cutters.

I'd recomend 3/16 diameter also. On the other hand though the rivits on the original were closer to 1/8" on the pembridge at least they were. Just looked it up.

If you want to make it look like the original get pics of the original(s). There's a good pic of the pembridge helm in AAOMK

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:29 pm

Cameron,

Anything you can come up with would be very appreciated!

Nick,

Measurements? Wow! Do you still have them? Although my main concern is getting the angles right on the upper pieces, the overall meansurements of the pieces would be awesome, too. If you have them, please share! You can email them to me if you wish at:

wisgliebau@yahoo.com

And please, do post pictures of yours!

Matt,

I might get an extra box of 1/2, for that purpose. I'd rather not grind 'em all down. I've had to do lots of that with shield tacks, etc... Quite annoying for me, and those are much smaller!

Cheers!

-Gregory-

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 3:52 pm

You don't need to grind em. Just snip em off with bolt cutters then use the flat end of the hammer for the first couple shots.

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:16 pm

Gregory, sounds like you've got a good plan for your first greathelm project.

You spoke a while back of a no-weld Pembridge -- I went, "Mmm-hmm. Yes, could be done." See, the original Pembridge types made their hoops of strips, bent round and then closed by forge welding, I believe in the back of the helm. Then the top cap and forehead/occiput and face/nape hoops were all put together by riveting. I figured you had in mind replacing the welding in the back of the hoops with riveting -- even flush riveting, if you wanted to get that kind of deluxe (it was occasionally done, but only when somebody really thought they needed to).

If you drill the breaths before forming, use a controlled forming method like hammering it into a sandbag or swedging block or over something like a thickwalled pipe or a rounded 2x4 edge; bending it in air by leverage means the metal will bend along the dotted line defined by the holes, and nowhere else. Irritating. A slip roller will bend perforated metal under the kind of control you want.

A good helm takes the sting out of face smacks! Might ring pretty loud, though...

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:29 pm

Cameron de Blakstan, the pattern in the Known World Handbook is for a generic-ish 13th-c. barrel helm, in a couple of variations. (The next helmet shown there is Alail Horsefriend's now-traditional SCA spangenhat, circa 1985.) It's the Polidor Haraldsson widest-at-the-ears helm and dates from about 1977. Amusingly, it can sport Bozen-type T-shaped breaths. Many a SCAdian has fought in this type of helm -- it's also a good tutorial for constructing a 5-plate type of helm. Now that I've been looking at period art, I'm not sure that I've ever seen the wide-at-the-ears shape on any helm seen face on. Even the Manesse Codex seems more to show topfhelms with minimalist faceplates.

Dougal Forester · Post by **Dougal Forester** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:23 pm

Gregory, Here is a great helm site I had lieing around...no patterns but plenty of helms. http://home.tiscali.be/klauwaer/helm/

if you have seen this just ignore me.

Mike

Archie Zietman · Post by **Archie Zietman** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 8:27 pm

if you widen the occulars to about 3/4 of an inch, and put lots of breaths, visibility will be quite good. I had the pleasure of trying on Otto Deichmiller's (Otto von Teich on here) MacPherson repro of this helm with the aforementioned modifications, and the visibility problem was solved, I could even see below me a fair bit.

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 10:12 pm

Dougal,

I've got that site in favorites. Thanks for the link, though! Appreciate the thoughtfulness. It is a good site, isn't it?

I got the information on the Black Prince helm from Nick, and it's a little sketchy (literally) but really good. The central section of the helm, below the dished top piece, is actually all one piece, and not of two riveted pieces like the Valentine helmet. So, Edward's helm was rather a cross between normal great helms and the Pembridge. I probably would have known this, if I had luck finding any other pictures of the original. But no, not until now...

Because of the complexity involved with the forming on these two, I've decided I'm going to attempt something simpler, after all, for a first try. I'm thinking Bolzano, since there are is a really good set of patterns for it on Arador's site.

Thanks for the help, folks!

-Gregory-

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:00 pm

Does this help any?
http://home.armourarchive.org/members/h ... lm1-23.jpg

Hal

knitebee · Post by **knitebee** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:12 pm

Fitting is so touchy with the three piece helm (Experiance talking). One option of compermise is to do the bottom and top ring with a seam up the back and rivet that closed, it gives the same look to the helm (except from behind) but allows some forgivness in fitting the two pieces together. Pattern the bottom first then work your way up. Once you start working with steel use your pattern pieces to see how the thickness of the steel changes things. With mine the thickness of the 12g steel made allmost a half inch differnce to the needed deminsion of the next ring.

If you lightly dish the upper ring so that its got subtle compound curves it will make a HUGE differnce in the over all looks of the finished helm and it will make a better glancing surface. If you go with a three piece helm like I did dish the upper ring BEFORE welding the seam up the back (learned the hard way that welding makes it far more difficult to shape the section.

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:12 pm

Hey Hal,

Could you make the image any larger, perhaps? That's really small, but it looks a lot like what I'd be looking for. Also, do you have something using a pattern like that to show what it ends up like?

By the way, could you PM me regarding a quote on the Black Prince helm shown up there, but with the top section being welded in the back, rather than riveted at the sides? I just want to entertain some price ranges from different folks.

Thanks!

-Gregory-

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Wed Dec 21, 2005 11:54 pm

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/h ... dwhite.jpg

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:11 am

That's what I'm after, sir! Are you going to be making kits for that?

-Gregory-

deBlakstan · Post by **deBlakstan** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 12:18 am

Greg,

I found the book I was looking for but it was just an article. "Best of the Hammer, Volume I". There is an exploded line drawing of a helm which is almost identical to the Pemberton helm. According to the article the helm is assumed to be from the same armourer's shop as the Pemberton. I won't post the pic here because its copyrighted. Send me a PM and I will see what I can do to help you with your research.

Cameron

Dougal Forester · Post by **Dougal Forester** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 2:42 am

Gregory, I did a search through the AA using key words...great helm kit...found a post by HAlberds showing a kit that is exactly that helm...He has two 14 ga (SCA legal) kits sitting on a shelf. They were $49.99 minus a 10% AA discount plus shipping. That is the way to go IMHO, Halberds will give lots of help /pointers on how to make the kit work.

The date of Halberds post was Nov. 5th. He also will include the rivets, so u dont have to worry about finding the right size/length, and there is another example of one completed, by Artemis, so u can see another example of how it may turn out.

Regards, Dougal

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:01 am

If you were to do what Konstantine and Knitebee were explaining of with the three pieced riveting you can make counter sunk holes for the rivets. This will make the hold stronger and flush with the metal. I was looking at some repairs to a helmet from the 16th century I think and noticed a patch on the inside that from the outside is not visible due to good finishing, ( I am not sure if it was done during the helmets active life). I would as a first helmet make a five piece, just easier. Also add some at the top and the cap so you can hammer both surfaces where they meet it makes it easier. Widen the eyes to at least 7/8 for visibility. I made a helm with 7/8 and started to think of a harness for it as I liked it so much. I am thinking about making a stuffed crest as well. Anyone fight in a flat topped helm? Any issue's beside the landing pad problem people talk about?
RPM

Nick D · Post by **Nick D** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:30 am

My pattern ended up quite similar to Halberds, but with a couple exceptions: The back bottom plate comes to more of a point, and on the forehead plate I didn't cut in the occularia. This helped keep the occularia narrow. My front plate was also quite a bit longer and the back shorter to keep with the dimensions of the original, which kicks the side seam back from the centerline.

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:45 pm

Okay guys,

I've got it all figured out, now. First I'd like to say I appreciate all of the help I've gotten in this thread in just a couple of days! Wow, it's great, seriously. I got rare measurements for the real Black Prince helm, I have had multiple ways of doing different things discussed, and a couple of suggestions I'm going to take along with me!

First, I really like Hals kit. I'm going to shoot him a PM to give me information about the final inside circumference of the piece at brow-level. I hope I can pick up one of the 14 gauge kits!

I'm still going to do a helm from scratch this break, because I'm determined to do so. I'm just going to start with a Bolzano, due to the simpler design. I'll work my way up to the harder, later great helms like the Pembridge and Black Prince models.

I'll post progress as I go, but I think I'll make a new thread for it. I should start in a couple of days!

Happy Holidays, guys!

-Gregory-

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 1:48 pm

http://home.armourarchive.org/members/halberds/Gkit.jpg
This is in stock. Not much of a demand for such a simple kit.

Hal

Jacob · Post by **Jacob** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:45 pm

Can the original measurements be posted? Not many books publish measurements, usually only weight.

I helped someone build one of these, but I don't think it ever got finished. They're awsome looking helms when done right.

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Thu Dec 22, 2005 10:58 pm

Jacob,

I sent the measurements to a single individual who I knew was really, really, really interested in them. I'll let it be Nick's choice whether anyone else gets them, since he got them to me. I'd rather not go posting them everywhere, because I don't know how the original measurer wanted them dispersed.

I'll PM Nick, to see if I can post them.

-Gregory-