My total frustration: Cuisses for a Byzantine - AHHHHHHGGG!!

[D. Sebastian]

I've just tossed across the room my latest (3rd) attempt to make period leg defence that is accurate yet will withstand the violence of SCA combat...


Here's my kit:



I'm currently using solid AL cuisses - which suck to look at, but protect really well.

I've tried a gamboised cuisse reinforced with splints, but its not accureate for this kit. So they went away.

I worked for a while on a manica leg defence, but for it to stand up and last more than a week - I was going to use AL lames. Adam Berry kindy pionted out to me that it would look like a carmel coverd dog turd (my words - he was much kinder).

This last attempt was rows of lamellar off the sides of the kilbanion.
BUT, because I close my kilbanion at the side, it did not cover the side of the leg -- only the front (I don't get hit there, and its not supposed to cover the front).


SO,
I've decided to suck less and get rid of the solid metal cuisses and replace them with the lamellar cuisses. However, they will be attached to a belt/suspender system and hidden under the dalmatica (not attached to the kilbanion). Not accurate, but a slightly lower score on the suck-o-meeter TM than I currently have.

...I guess.


I just hate hidden armour and am frustrated at trying to represent well and not meeting my mark.


Thanks for the ear.
[/vent]

[T. Finkas]

Is a skirt of pteruges not appropriate? If so, might not street hockey armour under a heavy leather "strap-skirt" suffice?

Your presentation rocks, DS. I appreciate the lengths you go to for period aesthetics. You are a class act. Bravo!

Tim

[D. Sebastian]

Tim,
You're describing my kit prior to the gamboise cuisses.


[img]http://www.honorblade.com/pics/Sebastian2004Feb.jpg[/img]

(same solid metal cussies I'm trying to get rid of instead of hockey pads.)

I got tired of looking like a pinecone and they ptrudes really didn't protect worth a squat.


Thanks for the kudos. Much appreciated.
I'm just trying to do my part for the team. Know what I mean? Make us all look better by starting with me.

[Mord]

D,

When I put together my lamellar (which, admittedly, is different from yours), I made "flaps" that covered my legs. This works well enough, so long as you don't have a side closure. I put my armor on by putting it over my head and pulling it over my head, as one would do with a regular shirt or tunic. I then secure the armor with straps that go over my shoulder.

Does that help?

Mord.

[D. Sebastian]

Adam Berry's old kit did that.
His new kit closes on the side like mine, only he has sufficent overlap to allow him to "add on" his lamellar 'flaps' when desired, and still cover the side of his leg.

I really have no desire to add the lammelar to cover my legs as all the iconagraphy/art I have shows none. But, at this point though, short of going baggy pants with hidden legs -- I think I'm out of options.


Having said that, I attached the "lamellar flaps" I just made each to a triangular and curved piece of metal I had:

_/\
/__\ - Auminum curved triangle sits on hip, attached to kilbanion on inside
|||||
||||| - lamellar leg protection
|||||

So I may be able to hang them inside the kilbanion at a single point instead of along the entire row. This will fix the side closure issue.
I think.

I'll let ya know after I finish lacing it on.

[T. Finkas]

How thick were those pteruges on your old kit? I had some that were 1/4" thick or better on a skirt that Dirk Lancaster made. They seemed like they would offer decent protection---but frankly I am only theorizing because I never actually fought in the harness. An additional thought is whether they could be done as cuirbolli.

[Thaddeus]

D. Pteruges can work, if thick enough - averrils are in the neighborhood of 11 oz leather and Damons are similar I believe. The pine cone effect can be reduce by weighting the ends down with something. You are really good at putting decorative geegaws on your harness - just think of it as enlarging your canvas.

What I would do is make hidden thigh armour in the form of close fitting chaps with pockets. Make the pockets and inch or two wide and then cut strips of plastic to fit. If you make the chaps with a system for tightening, such as an adjustable lace up the back or inner thigh, you could cinch it in tight and reduce it's visible signature. It wont completely stop a blow - but it will help a good deal. Just wear your walmart stretchies over it and unless you are sitting on someones face they will never know.

Or, be a man fight without cuisses, I used to when I wore that shirt. It only really sucked when I got hit.

[Chretien le Meunier]

Sebastian-

I have'nt much to offer in the way of suggestions about your current armour issue, seems like you all have a solution that should work very well.

I did however just want to comment on your kit, in short, it's awesome. To see such detail to period, construction and aesthetics on the field. I had never given much thought or interest to the area and period in which you portray, but seeing your kit, makes me give pause and piques my curiosity. Well done top to bottom my friend. Seeing such a kit gives life to the atmosphere in which we play.

Additionaly, thanks for all your hard work on the demo site, I've directed quite a number of people there, to explain and understand out hobby, it does a far greater job than I could in trying to describe it.

[D. Sebastian]

Or, be a man fight without cuisses, I used to when I wore that shirt. It only really sucked when I got hit.

Aint that the truth:


That is after 2 days of intensive tiger balm and asprin therapy. The bottom one is from Sir Angus O'Neil, the top from Baron Sir Kai.
(Last years Birka)


And my fav:





I should have a photo up tonight of the lamellar tassetts on the kilbanion.
I'll look forward to feedback!

[D. Sebastian]

BTW, the ptruges I had were sole leather, and belt leather.
Initally I had them weighted with bling, and they did not pinecone as much -- instead they twisted. I know Averril and Damon's ptruges are much wider than mine, and that prob helps the issue. Unfortunately I think they may be too wide.

Curboli would keep then straight, though I'm pretty sure I'd crush my achillies with the back one when I drop to my knees.
I considdered going curboli with the cuisse, but not much better than the AL in terms of accurate.



Chretien,
I'm humbled at your praise.
Thank Thaddeus and Adam Berry. They ensured from my first day in the Society that I had a desire to look the part (mostly by pointing and laughing). Actually they were (and are) my insperation with the great kits they wear.


I'm greatly pleased that the SCAdemo.com is useful to you! A lot of people helped make that happen.

[Thaddeus]

Awe geez.

OK gonna through some references at you.
Osprey: Romano-byzantine armies 4th-9th centuries. pg 12 an image of the lost column of Arcadius c AD400 (constantinople) showing what mishg tbe interpreted as horizontaly quilted leg protection looking very much like chausses without feet or stirrups. (trinity college, cambridge).

So it's one reference actually, I thought I'd find more.
If you want to go with the manica style laminated defence you might explore the possability of using titanium. That would be thin enough not to look like some sort of playmobil amour and strong enough not to get destroyed. I am experimenting with it currently for my new harness. It will be the hidden bits I need to play hard up here. I am hoping that being less insulative than plastic I wont run into some of my heat issues. At least not as fast.

[Egfroth]

Wish I could help. I tend to concentrate on a leter period of Byzantium, so my stuff really isn't relevant to your own.

I know what you mean about hidden armour, but as far as I can see, the suggestions above might be of help.

Good luck with it.
PS: I'm interested in those plate greaves. Do you have a reference for them?

[D. Sebastian]

Good luck with it.
PS: I'm interested in those plate greaves. Do you have a reference for them?

There is no reference, hence my urgency to quit myself of them. They were somthing to keep my leg from becoming hamburger.



Thaddeus -
I'd prefer not to go the quilted rout as I'm borderline heat issues.

Now titanium...


Would Ti withstand a "Duke Balfar" and hold its shape?



Too bad Sir Mrks is no longer in business.


Any other Ti guys about?

[olaf haraldson]

E-mail mrks... he still dabbles, and says that he takes commissions if they interest him.

www.tiarmour.com

[Gwydion Caithnes]

NICE bruises!!! Especially that last one...I had a butt-wrap that bad a few months ago...

Oh - and your armour is fantastic. GREAT presentation! I know your household, and you do it great credit.

[Thaddeus]

Does anything withstand His Grace?

I think not.

The ti would hold up admirably however. Spring right back into shape it would. Without decent padding a lot of force is still going to transmit however. Markus recommended some pretty thick padding as I recall. Also since as I envision it these would be laminated strips it would be more difficult to give them a third dimension for rigidity. So far I have had no trouble bending .035 in simple curves using a cross peen hammer. If you are going to be at practice next Sunday I will throw a piece in my armour bag for you to check out. Making a manica or quissica? should be cake.

[D. Sebastian]

Olaf,
THANKS, I will.


Gwydion,
You honor me greatly with your words.
I take them to heart.
Thanks!



Thaddeus:
Spring back is all I'm looking for!

Nothing will really protect you from that shot by the purple bear, I'm just wanting to not have to track down the pieces of armour after the explosion!



Here's the stopgap measure of lamellar... um... tassetts?
(had to use the video camera - digi pics suck on it - sorry)



[img]http://www.honorblade.com/pics/lam-tassetts1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.honorblade.com/pics/lam-tassetts2.jpg[/img]

[img]http://www.honorblade.com/pics/lam-tassetts3.jpg[/img]
(shows how they drape when on knees)


kit minus chainmaile and squire belt.
Thoughts?

[DELETEMYACCOUNT]

Nicest guy on earth+beautiful armor+adorable kid= priceless friend.
Way to go Matty

[D. Sebastian]

(takes one to know one!)

I count my blessings daily Animal.
I know you do too.


Hope you and the fam have a safe, prosperous, and happy 2006.

[Edwin]

I have been kicking around ideas for how to do SCA-legit Byzantine leg defense for a while. What I'm going to try next is using gamboised cuises with simple knee cop and perhaps some sole leather lames reinforcing hidden in the quilted portion near the knee. Then I'll make a kremasmata (or my interpretation of it) to cover that, and my klibanion will be on top of that. With enough layers of linen and cotton batting, I'm hoping that the bruising will be no worse than the 1/8" HDPE I have now, or the 10oz leather I used to have.

[D. Sebastian]

I'm thinking of adding a padded skirt under the dalmatica

...to take the edge off of the butt wrap.

[Galileo]

Good luck with it.
PS: I'm interested in those plate greaves. Do you have a reference for them?

There is no reference, hence my urgency to quit myself of them. They were somthing to keep my leg from becoming hamburger.

I might have a reference for you on the plate greaves.
No pic scanned in yet, but I just got a new book

Book is "The Fourth Crusade" by Jonathan Phillips.
In the plate section, specifically - Icon of St Michael, late 11th C - taken from Constantinople after the Fourth Crusade.

Michael is wearing what appears to be plate greaves (covering the knee similarly to old Roman style) , sabatons, and plate forearm defenses.


Now to see if I can get access to a scanner

G--

[D. Sebastian]

YES PLEASE!

[Galileo]

Alrighty, here is one that's been cropped. Sorry the resolution isn't better - borrowed scanner and all...


Posting low res (44kb). If anyone wants to see the high res (776kb) image, I'll email it. No web host for me yet.

G--

(The pic in the book is far clearer).

Full reference for the image.
Plates (last plate in series next to page 167)

"The Fourth Crusade and the Sack of Constantinople" by Jonathan Phillips
Penguin Books 2004, 2005
ISBN 0143035908

[D. Sebastian]

Please email me the hi-res:
mattyd@mattyd.com

It looks like ptruges over a dalmatica.
Wanna closer look at it and the banded lamellar.
(yummy)

Thanks for posting!

[Aonghus]

If anyone wants to see the high res (776kb) image, I'll email it. No web host for me yet.

I'd like a hi-res image as well, please. E-mail it to me at:
haynes1992@yahoo.com
Thanks for the images.

D. Sebastian

How do you do the white leather edging on you rows, I've blown the pics in this thread and others up and still can't see how you're attaching it to the plates I NEED to know man , I 've got 5 1/2 body rows put together now and I'll be starting on the shorter rows tomorrow, after that it will be on to lacing the rows together....help!

[Galileo]

Email sent


G--

[D. Sebastian]

OK - I fought in the lamellar tassets tonight and this is what I discovered:

THE GOOD:
- They absoutely protect when they are struck. A solid direct hit was felt well, but no where near crippeling.
- They filtered away a lot of the "maybe" shots that might have landed but wouldn't have been good.
- Being attached to the kilbanion, they move with the twist of my body, not my leg allowing me to turn my leg for set-ups undetected.

THE BAD:
- They don't go far enough around the back. I'm nekked on the back.
- Being attached to the kilbanion, they move with the twist of my body, not my leg. Therefor the leg can move out from the protection and become exposed at most inopportune times.

THE UGLY:
- The back of my leg.



Looks like I need to go to a crash-pad type protection under my leg. This will suck donky as I wear the tighter trouser correct for my time period, but I can't figure our how to protect my legs at my level of fighting.





I'll prob need to supplement the crash-pads with something else - haven't figured that out yet.

I'm also thingking about trying to tide the lumpy-leg problem the crash-pads will create with soem highly decrotive brocade ptruges.

Down the road I'll be looking into the Titanim manica idea that Thaddeus posted.

[Adriano]

DS -- you mentioned you were thinking of adding a padded skirt. Seems to me that such a skirt in combination with the tassets might take care of the CYA problem.

Also wanted to mention that while I've seen a lot of lamellar, I've seldom seen such a great overall presentation. Thanks for setting a good example.

[D. Sebastian]

Thanks for the nod!


I'm trying to decide on a pair of padded shorts that should be low enough profile. I'll post pic of em.

[Egfroth]

Here's a very hi-res detail of those legs. They're on an ikon of St Michael (the archangel) dating probably to the 11th century, and looted in the sack of Constantinople of 1204 - now in the treasury of San Marco, in Venice.

I have a colour pic of the whole thing, far too big to put on this forum, but here's also a smaller version. Pret-t-t-y . . . shi-i -i -i -ny.

What to make of these leg things, however, is another question entirely. They appear to be tied off at the top once, and at the ankle twice. There also seems to be some sort of "panelling" in the leg protectors. Perhaps these are splinted greaves with fabric covering?

I seem to have seen this kind of construction somewhere before. I'll have a look among my files and see what I can find.

The bulge at the knee might be big enough to hide knee-cops, perhaps. But the upper legs are still unprotected.

[Murdock]

This is the problem with many "early" and or "exotic" personas. They simply did not have the equipment to meet armour requirements for the SCA. This leaves people with just a few options

#1 Wear oop gear for the portrayal. IMO this is wat usually happens. Even when covered up many many people end up wearing what is essentially late 13th early 14th century armour, espically when it comes to legs and arms.

#2 Make something up and hide it. Hence the big poofy pants on so many folks. Usually covered plastic or sports equipment

#3 Folks can suck it up. There are some guys who will just take the lumps and fight in a mail shirt greaves and a helm. That' pretty dedicated.. and likely hurts pretty bad. The guys that'll take the lups to do it "right" deserve some kudos.

Now D has a really really purty rig and a cute lil buddy there with him (reminds me of my lil boy) So since there is no known period leg defense for his persona suitable for SCA combat (though i think the Lamalar Tassets are probably about the best you can come up with)

Here's the best thing i can think of to help him.
Now this stuff ain't cheap but D is obviously willing to put sme time and $$$ into his gear.

http://www.redmangear.com/products.jhtm ... uct.id=100

Look under the WDS suit and it's item number 10 the thigh protector.

They are made of reinforced polymer (plastic still sucks) fairly form fitted and very light. Cut the knees off and they should hide easily under your rig. They take metal baton hits and simunitions with some sting but not real pain.

they also make a riot control set that is modular and is covered with black nomex. I have not won that but it _should_ be tougher than the training set. I have worn the other version. The nomex coated ones can be worn without the knee and shin guards so there would be littel if any modification involved.

http://www.redmangear.com/products.jhtm ... duct.id=85

Lotts of this stuf may be applicable to those who want to hide elements of their rig and keep a cleaner "early period" line. Not quite as bulky as hockey gear or motor cross stuff.

Now don't yall buy this stuff and go try and stop a riot single handed or anything.


Hope that helps a little

[D. Sebastian]

Murdock,
YES!, exactly.
You have summed up the epic struggle I face with this issue of leg defence.


I've been looking at this page all week:
http://www.cambriabike.com/shopdisplayp ... =Leg%2FHip

This morning, I ordered the ones at the very bottom of the page.
They cover the spot EXACTLY where I always get hit, and have some ass-padding to boot.

I should get them next week - I'll let you all know how they fare.

[Murdock]

" Vented ABS impact plastic thigh guards.
• Flexible, articulated ABS tail bone coverage.
• Perforated closed-cell EVA foam impact protection"


Thats ridigid i think

Hell i might get some to cover th gap between the top of my cuiess and the bottom of my body armour.


Thats some cool stuff,

http://www.cambriabike.com/shopdisplayp ... Body+Suits

DUDE THEY MAKE BODY ARMOUR!!! INTEGRATED ARM GUARDS AND EVERYTHING!!!!!

I gotta get some of that for brawling season in the spring. We start fighting all night when May hits the precinct.

[J. Morgan Kuberry]

You can always switch over to LH and avoid the whole mess...that's how I finally retrieved my 1300 look wholly and completely. Its never too late!