SCA: Armour you just DON'T SEE... For me!

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Hello folks,

As many know, I'm very enthusiastic about developing kit ideas, but haven't gotten around to doing much about it all! I'm in the midst of my first late-14th century kit, and it's going smoothly. I'll be very proud of it. But, it's very likely that I'll get SOME kind of plate harness put together next.

I want to get armor with four simple goals in mind:

A. I like it and can afford to have it made!
B. It looks historic when done!
C. It meets SCA standards!
D. It's something you don't see every day!

I plan on being able to use some hidden armor, and would like something that historically can have mitten gauntlets. I'd like a helm I can use without a bargrill. I do like half-harnesses a lot! My regional interests lie in Southern Germany and in southern Slavic nations between Russia and the Germanic countries. My heritage is German and Croatian, so something that can give me a feel for either of those would work!

Once again, I'd like to stress that I want options available to me that are VERY out of the ordinary! I'm having Dan Houchins do some research on Kastenbrust armor for me. If that ends up being out of my price range, I'll need another option! As I said, I like different, so I plan on having the bulk of the harness, sans the helm, made in leather by Dan. So, your participation in this thread is encouraged, if you've got something up your sleeve!

Thank you!

-Gregory-

[Russ Mitchell]

Well, if you want to split the difference, you wind up in Carinthia/Carniola, wearing Austrian stuff... but otherwise, if you want the Croatian banate, you get the best pickings between Venetian and Hungarian (the two powers fighting over Dalmatia), with anything Balkan/
Byzantine you want thrown in the mix just for good measure. You're literally as close to "anything goes" as can truly be said.

I'm having hte opposite problem doing this. As I just wrote to Animal, I'm felting up wool for an arming caftan. But for it to serve its historical purpose (fending off arrows), it has to be dense, not thick -- aka, it catches a point and will help to turn an edge... but is completelly worthless for rattan combat...

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Russ, I'm interested in what kind of pictures you'd be able to come up with for me. As I said, I'm into plate armor, for this project. So, probably going 15th or16th centuriy, for sure.

-Gregory-

[Tibbie Croser]

How about an anime cuirass? That could be done historically in plate or less historically in leather. Anime armor has been discussed several times recently on the AA.

[Russ Mitchell]

Flittie's right: an anime cuirass would be appropriate for a Croat, for SCA purposes, a set of the long tassets going down to integrated knees would be smart. And you'd want a custom helm, as that's essentially hussar gear. Otherwise you want to go Italian.

Less so for a Carinthian, who'd likely be wearing a classic German-style cuirass.

Plate armor is NOT my specialty, so what I can provide you there is relatively limited.

[MJBlazek]

Gregory,

Im curretnly in the process of trying to put together a kit of Indain Mughul Armor. Theres somethign you dont see a lot of!

[Ahriman]

Millenium: which kind of Moghul armour?

Hm, this brings up a question in me... how likely is that indo-persian stuff made it here? I mean, this area... I mean, MY area, Hungary... Just because the ottomans, AFAIK, tried to "copy" the persians in a FEW things, so I'd think it logical that they copied the stuff as well.

Back to on-topic...
If you want some kind of outstanding stuff, I think you'll need an outstanding presona as well... don't think of princes or the like, only something like a christianised turkish merc, or a renegate yanissar or sipahi... Or simply someone who fought against the turks, and didn't have problems with looting... Hey, if the japanase could use peascods instead of standard dos while still using the normal stuff around them... (see Effingham's site)
And I think that a full arm with that in-built gauntlet I LOVE would look nice with a banded breast (not the anime, but the ottoman one), a hussar helmet (I don't know if it has a proper english name ), a skirt of most likely bachterec and maybe a turkish full leg. But that could be "standard" european as well. But that's just my idea...

[igelkott]

I've always thought that this armor was kindof unusual:



and it should be easily adaptable to SCA combat.

Chris

[Langston Clarke]

Thats nifty, but it looks like it'd chew up rattan like a, erm....rattan...chewing...thing

[ushumgal]

Speaking of Japanese armor, I always thought it would be fun to make a tanko harness - the very early (6th century AD?) style, that had a banded breastplate, and a beaked helmet also built up of bands. Looks pleasantly archaic.

Though they are outside your real area of interest, I have a few general suggestions to offer for those looking for something a bit more unique:

Sassanian Persian could be fun - it is just within the official SCA period (if you are concerned about that). The Sassanians were the last great Persian empire, were Zoroastrians, and were constantly fighting with the Romans and later Byzantines. Their empire fell to the Muslims. The Sassanian clibanarius wore a full suit of mail or lamellar, and they had some interesting helmets. One, depicted on a relief in Iran, shows the king wearing a helmet with goggles and a full mail aventail (covering the face), making it look very much like a later Scandanavian helmet. A more common style was basically a spangenhelm, but viewed from the side, it was very tall and shaped like a D turned on its side. You could also use some nice Zoroastrian iconography on the shield, which would certainly turn a few heads!

I would also suggest looking into Indian armor - they had lots of interesting mail & plate types that I have never seen used in SCA (and indeed, Indian personae seem to be extremely rare, given what a populous and important area India was). Same goes for Chinese and other east Asian besides Japanese - they used some interesting stuff, but it is rarely used in SCA. Robinson's Oriental Armour is a good place to start.

If one is not worried about the official SCA period, I could suggest many interesting things from the ancient/Classical Near East and Mediterranean - should I get back into SCA anytime in the near future, I would be torn between something Hellenistic Period, or Neo-Assyrian - ankle-length scale coat, pointed helmet with cuneiform inscription, and choice of shields!.

Best,
Jamie
LU2.DUB.SAR

[Ivo]

Hi.

Most unusual would be Indian stuff.

http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/html_En/ ... 0_8_7.html

Another indian specialty would be the stuff from Sind. Maille and plates from head to toe, sitting on padded pants and shirt. And a face mask, that should be adaptable to SCA requirements.

Buth why look too far abroad? How about early 15th century? Especially in German style, I have rarely seen a Kastenbrust rig.

[MJBlazek]

The stuff in the link that Ivo posted....thats what Im making!

[Ahriman]

Indian stuff are one of my favourites, especially the sind area.
But another interesting thing could be a zertsalo... that's russian, much like the krug and the plate components of the plated chihal'ta hazar masha. They mostly used mail under it, and AFAIK, most usually mail mittens, BUT I think that it wouldn't look strange with standard european plate arms, legs and gauntlets, especially if you make/have it made in a similar fashion.
Aye, and I'd go with side buckles, so you can have the discs front AND back.

Or I'd simply choose m&p. Did I mention that it's my favourite?

[Trevor]

OMG-if that helmet wasn't in a museum I'd swear it was another SCA amagamation of horrors!

[DAVID01]

I dig the hell out of it, but sight looks like it could be a problem.

HEY I THOUGHT THIS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE SCA ARMOUR

[Sasuke]

OMG-if that helmet wasn't in a museum I'd swear it was another SCA amagamation of horrors!

Not that it is the case with the above picture. But many museums have hideous fakes that are sometimes still on display with "real" stuff. So, just be sure to check before assuming a piece of armour is authentic just because it is in a museum or armour book. I found that out the hard way

Chris

[Ivo]

Humm.

Come to think of it, armour you JUST DON´T SEE in SCA use could be just about any period, but properly and accurately crafted and executed down to the underwear, avoiding any SCAdianisms like e.g. bigger visions on helmet visors, use of aluminum, titanium and plastics, leather replicas of steel originals etc.

Huh?

[Sebastian K]

You know Ivo, that was quite uncalled for. There are a lot of kits in the SCA that do fit these criterias, and even so there is no need to be snide about a game you do not play.

Best Regards

Sebastian

[Ivo]

Not sniding in a game I don´t play.
Just recollecting some tons of pics I have come across online and what I have seen in the flesh.
Plus, I was not generalizing or merely stating that the SCA was made up of ignorant dumb- asses.
But I dare say that an absolutely accurate approach as such still can be considered a comparatively rare thing, and that applies just as well to what you can see on German medieval markets.

But hey- there was a "wink" smiley at the end of my last post- i had exspected it to take any snide undertone out of it.
I have no intention whatsoever to start yet another accuracy flame war!

[Trevor]

Can't argue with you, Ivo.

There are a few harnesses out there that are LH level authentic, but they are rare.

But, as long as the game is competitive, you will have such anachronisms.

Fortunately, we do have a few isolated events where authenticity is given more emphasis than being the top stick. That's where you see some folks displaying what the SCA can do when it has a mind to.

[Alcyoneus]

So, just be sure to check before assuming a piece of armour is authentic just because it is in a museum or armour book. I found that out the hard way

Chris

So, tell us about it...

[Sebastian K]

Ivo,

I was intentionally not comparing it to what passes for a medivalish scene on the market circuit here in Germany. That is a can of worms all in itself. I just happened to think that your comment was snide, and I also happen to think that a smilie cannot take the sting out of everything one happens to write. Otherwise it would be altoo easy to couch even the most venomous insults (not that your comment would have been venomous or insulting) into a thin veneer of Internet smilies.

Yes, there are not many hard kits in the SCA that do not (have) to make some sort of comprosmise towards the ruleset of the SCA or the mindset/purse/health of the participant. But that is not the cause of why I felt the need to adress you on the content of your post.

I just felt that your comment was neither friendly nor helpful, and as such deplaced in this thread. And even though I do not feel that I have flamed you in any way, and I certainly did not want to provoke a flamewar, just trying to point something out. So if you feel flamed or offended by what I wrote please accept my sincerest apologies, it was meant in good spirit in order to prevent a possibly ruder conflict as we both have seen them ensue over comments made in jest and even good intent, be it here or at tempus vivit.

With the best Regards from Cologne

Sebastian

[Ivo]

No offence taken. That´s this bloody written communications thing. Glad we sorted it out within three posts, I have had far worse experiences

But still, be it SCA or our "medieval" market thing- to be "special" and stand out one doesn´t need to look for some remote area- the simplest way is to do one thing and do it properly and accurately right from the start.
This to me fit the bill of "Things YOU JUST DON´T SEE".

Plus- in many time frames there´s a huge variety of things you just don´t see.
For e.g. 15th century (just my favourite field, so please do nobody take offence!) there´s surviving armour and helmets by the truckload.
But there´s but a very small variety of "reputed quality" items -which is, used by the groups with the big names. So people tend to rather copy approved designs instead of searching for a piece that is just as period.

Even in a rather "all over the place" time frames it is thus pretty easy to stand out. I´m pretty sure this goes for most fields post 1350.

[MJBlazek]

Yeah, But I think Gregory was lookign more for the ..."you don't see, even if it be in a generic form"

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Thank you, ML. That's what I mean.

I'm interested in different styles of plate armor that would work for a GERMAN impression (if you haven't noticed, I've decided on a name, and am currently developing my persona history). Any plate harnesses may be considered, if they are NOT your run of the mill stuff! No Gothic, for example!

-Gregory-

[MJBlazek]

Im going German in the SCA too....but I just like the gothic plate to much!

[Konstantin the Red]

Thats nifty, but it looks like it'd chew up rattan like a, erm....rattan...chewing...thing

That would indeed get him nicknamed "Gerhard Woodchipper," all right.

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Ha, ha, ha... Good one, Konstantine!

Folks, I think I'm going to settle with a Kastenbrust harness based on the Ludwig alterpiece, which was the same that influenced Robert Macpherson's kit for Sir Orlando. He's way across the country, and his is spring-steel, rather than leather... So, I think we'll be different enough!

Thanks for any of the, well, literal help!

-Gregory-