A rant on not bashing new armor (SCA)
A rant on not bashing new armor (SCA)
Recently I have been producing armor with some of the new combatants in my Barony. I feel that the kits I am producing are of a much finer caliber than the loaner armor that I had to work with. I am discouraged though that when the people I work with go out that they talk to other trainers and the armor style and fit and function are getting bashed. I appreciate that I use my preferences and style in armor making with the persons recommendations, and they do not necessarily fit every style that is represented out there since we have historical and sports freaks locally, but gimme a break. I am perturbed that people who would choose to be trainers and role models do not encourage new combatants to get through the process of being safe for authorization and then work on "what's wrong with your kit/style in my opinion". I've heard everything from "sword too heavy for a woman" to "Wisby COP with Archers knees looks inaccurate". I am not so bothered by the opinions in themselves, but what they are doing to the confidence of the trainees. Is the message that we pass on encouraging to our new fighters, or is it derogatory towards the people who help them and causing them to second-guess fighting style, armor type, training routine, and Pell work. How to you pass quality emotional support on to a trainee if you aren’t the primary trainer. How do you pass this on to women in particular, who I believe may have a more difficult path to start than a male would? I am involved with several new people and any pointers anyone can pass on would help.
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Morgan
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Actually, Arland, it seems that he's complaining about the opposite problem. He's saying when a newbie is outfitted in a non-matched armour harness, they critisize it at the very early "just get them on the field" stage. He's suggesting that a new fighter be allowed to fight in a mis-matched armour kit and then once they're a bit more acclimated and into it, they THEN get work/assistnace/constructive critisizm on their kit.
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FrauHirsch
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lubeck:
I've heard everything from "sword too heavy for a woman" </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lubeck,
The problem I see all the time is that often guys will start women out in stuff so poorly matched to them that they are doomed to failure. If a sword is too heavy, it can cause tendonitis in a few practices and that's it for her. Recently one of our new women was encouraged into a lorica. Now mind you she's already decided to be a late 15th or early 16th c persona, but some guys who are "into" ancient period have heavily recruited her into their unit.
My answer to her was that there would possibly be modifications required to a period lorica to make it work well for a woman and that in my personal experience I've never seen one of the more successfull female fighters use a metal lorica. (I've a few women use flexible leather lorica-ish armor, but not the real thing.) She admitted that the guys making it have never made armor for a woman before. Since she has a somewhat similar build to myself, I think I have a pretty good idea of the problems she will encounter.
Maybe its rather blunt of me to say "at least you aren't spending much and should be able to replace it if it doesn't work", but it bugs me that she could have had something that works the first time. The truth is that most women don't stick with it, and few last more than 3 yrs. IMHO, many times this is likely an equipment issue which makes them even more non-competitive and not able to progress.
So if someone says "that sword is too heavy", please listen. It could cause serious problems for the woman if that is so, and many will not say so, because often they don't want to come across as not being tough enough to cut it. Their grip should be smaller, and often a basket hilt may need to be offset.
That said, I don't use a super light sword. Its close to 3 lbs, but its a bit shorter than most men use and the basket hilts are smaller and custom made so they don't smack me 1/2 way up my arm.
Juliana
I've heard everything from "sword too heavy for a woman" </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lubeck,
The problem I see all the time is that often guys will start women out in stuff so poorly matched to them that they are doomed to failure. If a sword is too heavy, it can cause tendonitis in a few practices and that's it for her. Recently one of our new women was encouraged into a lorica. Now mind you she's already decided to be a late 15th or early 16th c persona, but some guys who are "into" ancient period have heavily recruited her into their unit.
My answer to her was that there would possibly be modifications required to a period lorica to make it work well for a woman and that in my personal experience I've never seen one of the more successfull female fighters use a metal lorica. (I've a few women use flexible leather lorica-ish armor, but not the real thing.) She admitted that the guys making it have never made armor for a woman before. Since she has a somewhat similar build to myself, I think I have a pretty good idea of the problems she will encounter.
Maybe its rather blunt of me to say "at least you aren't spending much and should be able to replace it if it doesn't work", but it bugs me that she could have had something that works the first time. The truth is that most women don't stick with it, and few last more than 3 yrs. IMHO, many times this is likely an equipment issue which makes them even more non-competitive and not able to progress.
So if someone says "that sword is too heavy", please listen. It could cause serious problems for the woman if that is so, and many will not say so, because often they don't want to come across as not being tough enough to cut it. Their grip should be smaller, and often a basket hilt may need to be offset.
That said, I don't use a super light sword. Its close to 3 lbs, but its a bit shorter than most men use and the basket hilts are smaller and custom made so they don't smack me 1/2 way up my arm.
Juliana
Arland - I am just happy anymore when I see someone in the Outlands without visible plastic. The armour had gotten much better (or at least better covered) in the last few years.
On to the point - As far as the point of this post, I kind of have the one year rule on everything but safety. If they have "made the attempt" to look mideval, I will only make suggestions if asked for the first year. (After that, I may offer them
)
Now a sword (or other weapon) that is too heavy is another story. If the user is not safe to his/her opponent or HIM/HERSELF, then it is a danger. Offer (politely) a lighter weapon for a couple fights...usually that is all it takes.
Just some thoughts.
Mav
On to the point - As far as the point of this post, I kind of have the one year rule on everything but safety. If they have "made the attempt" to look mideval, I will only make suggestions if asked for the first year. (After that, I may offer them
)Now a sword (or other weapon) that is too heavy is another story. If the user is not safe to his/her opponent or HIM/HERSELF, then it is a danger. Offer (politely) a lighter weapon for a couple fights...usually that is all it takes.
Just some thoughts.
Mav
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SyrRhys
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Speaking as both an authenticity nut and as a trainer of fighters who want to win (why are people always seen as one or the other?), I think it's *important* to tell newcomers about the flaws in their equipment and harness. I think many of our problems stem from folks not being more demanding (both in terms of authenticity *and* in terms of suitability for the lists) from day *one* with new fighters. Are you sure someone isn't making positive, helpful comments that you're *taking* as criticism? Frankly, I've heard a lot of people make positive comments about kits that always seem to be taken as harsh, no mater how carefully issued. It's great that you're making things for newcomers, but any of us that do things for others (and that applies to teaching, etc., too) have to be prepared to deal positively with criticism.
Now, don't get me wrong: The people saying these things might be the biggest jerks that ever walked. I don't have any idea. I'm just saying that I've often seen it go both ways, so carefu8lly look at what you're doing.
For one thing, if you're building armor, why *aren't* you ensuring that it's homogeneous in terms of period and location? You're setting the opinions of these fighters from their first kit, so you have a huge responsibility to set them on the right path.
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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
Now, don't get me wrong: The people saying these things might be the biggest jerks that ever walked. I don't have any idea. I'm just saying that I've often seen it go both ways, so carefu8lly look at what you're doing.
For one thing, if you're building armor, why *aren't* you ensuring that it's homogeneous in terms of period and location? You're setting the opinions of these fighters from their first kit, so you have a huge responsibility to set them on the right path.
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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
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Patrick
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I have outfitted several fighters and gotten lots of different comments. For one thing, I don't weld. No local SCA folks do. So, all helms are of riveted construction. For another thing, I don't do plastic and I am really frugal with leather. Most of the stuff that was made in my shop was steel. And if someone wants mail, he can make it at home. I don't do mail.
Regarding historical accuracy, I was not too hung up on it. I feel that it works best to have a new guy make a kit that looks generally like the period he wants and TELL him that his gear is only giving the general impression. It is not actually authentic. Try to let him know where the inaccuracies are. For many armors, the knee articulation (I use only one pattern, no matter the period) is too generic to look quite right. Also, gorgets are not right with earlier armor, but I make them. I use generic gauntlet patterns. I avoid putting anything too difficult in front of new guys. I try to make it about as good as my first armor. I hasten to add that my first armor was the best armor in the barony at that time. It just wasn't fancy or especially authentic.
My problem was always with folks dissing my helms. I don't do bargrills. I will tell anyone who wants to make armor in my shop that grills are ugly and not generally historical. So, they get either full-faced spangenhelms or greathelms or spun-top helms. (I don't have a source for the spun tops any more, so those are gone.) Thing is, a new guy shows up in his helm and is told "that's a mace landing pad!" or "you won't be able to fight with that narrow eyeslot - get a grill" or "those rivets are gonna tear up rattan." And it never works to tell the detractors that nobody here uses a mace, that people fought with narrower eyeslots for ceturies when the stakes were life and death, and that if they want pretty rattan they should not hit me in the head.
I am as close to an authenticity mavin as we have here (all others of similar bent having been driven out deliberately), so the historical questions seldom come up. Still, I hate putting effort into getting a new guy suited up and then hearing the armor being insulted by a cheeseweasel with leather legs and visible hockey pads on the body. And don't get me started on hockey gloves. I hate those things and would rather help anyone make gauntlets than see those gumby mitts on the field. But folks want the lighter weight and cheap ($10 used) and easy solution. Grump.
Hang in there. See if you can find ways to make the new armor look really kind of spiffy. It is surprising how cool a basic breastplate looks when it is painted black. And that adds to the period look, too. I've had folks cheer for me because I had all matching (all black) armor and for no other reason. Kind of cool.
-Patrick
Regarding historical accuracy, I was not too hung up on it. I feel that it works best to have a new guy make a kit that looks generally like the period he wants and TELL him that his gear is only giving the general impression. It is not actually authentic. Try to let him know where the inaccuracies are. For many armors, the knee articulation (I use only one pattern, no matter the period) is too generic to look quite right. Also, gorgets are not right with earlier armor, but I make them. I use generic gauntlet patterns. I avoid putting anything too difficult in front of new guys. I try to make it about as good as my first armor. I hasten to add that my first armor was the best armor in the barony at that time. It just wasn't fancy or especially authentic.
My problem was always with folks dissing my helms. I don't do bargrills. I will tell anyone who wants to make armor in my shop that grills are ugly and not generally historical. So, they get either full-faced spangenhelms or greathelms or spun-top helms. (I don't have a source for the spun tops any more, so those are gone.) Thing is, a new guy shows up in his helm and is told "that's a mace landing pad!" or "you won't be able to fight with that narrow eyeslot - get a grill" or "those rivets are gonna tear up rattan." And it never works to tell the detractors that nobody here uses a mace, that people fought with narrower eyeslots for ceturies when the stakes were life and death, and that if they want pretty rattan they should not hit me in the head.
I am as close to an authenticity mavin as we have here (all others of similar bent having been driven out deliberately), so the historical questions seldom come up. Still, I hate putting effort into getting a new guy suited up and then hearing the armor being insulted by a cheeseweasel with leather legs and visible hockey pads on the body. And don't get me started on hockey gloves. I hate those things and would rather help anyone make gauntlets than see those gumby mitts on the field. But folks want the lighter weight and cheap ($10 used) and easy solution. Grump.
Hang in there. See if you can find ways to make the new armor look really kind of spiffy. It is surprising how cool a basic breastplate looks when it is painted black. And that adds to the period look, too. I've had folks cheer for me because I had all matching (all black) armor and for no other reason. Kind of cool.
-Patrick
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Warren
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Having been a period reenactor for about 20 years, I would have to say that it is good to try and help someone out by getting them on the field.
When I did Victorian military stuff, our unit leader did not cut us much slack if our kit was not authentic. (This came from a guy who carried a sawed off pool cue as a drill cane). [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img]
Perhaps it would be best to help new folks out as they go, trying to keep the parts of armour as chronologically close to each other as possible. There is always the inevitable rush of excitement and adrenalin when getting armoured for the first time. Sometimes, the accuracy part gets over looked.
Perhaps some basic kit combination suggestions could be included in the Rules of the List. A viking, a crusader, Roman, Greek, Transitional, classic round armour etc. The most popular choices listed in detail for the beginner. Anticipated costs, production times and where to source them.
Often, a newbie says ooooh, I want to be a .... or wow, that's cool... how much would it cost to... and so on.
My advice is to try to keep some accuracy within a reasonable budget and upgrade to the more accurate/expensive gear over time.
My first helm was a open face pembridge with bars and I wore it with lorica I made from pickle barrel. And covered with my mother's old bedsheet and a red cross painted on. It was all I could afford at the time. I still have that helm, but have since become a somewhat more accurate Crusader.
I guess the big thing is for the new folks, is to be reasonable with outfitting them because as we all know its easy to acquire a pile of gear we dont use.
Newbies come and go and some end up staying for a long while
the best thing we can do is help each other out and use common sense when getting kitted up.
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<A HREF="http://www.hosekileather.homestead.com" TARGET=_blank>
www.hosekileather.homestead.com
</A> "There was great wailing and gnashing of teeth"
When I did Victorian military stuff, our unit leader did not cut us much slack if our kit was not authentic. (This came from a guy who carried a sawed off pool cue as a drill cane). [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img]
Perhaps it would be best to help new folks out as they go, trying to keep the parts of armour as chronologically close to each other as possible. There is always the inevitable rush of excitement and adrenalin when getting armoured for the first time. Sometimes, the accuracy part gets over looked.
Perhaps some basic kit combination suggestions could be included in the Rules of the List. A viking, a crusader, Roman, Greek, Transitional, classic round armour etc. The most popular choices listed in detail for the beginner. Anticipated costs, production times and where to source them.
Often, a newbie says ooooh, I want to be a .... or wow, that's cool... how much would it cost to... and so on.
My advice is to try to keep some accuracy within a reasonable budget and upgrade to the more accurate/expensive gear over time.
My first helm was a open face pembridge with bars and I wore it with lorica I made from pickle barrel. And covered with my mother's old bedsheet and a red cross painted on. It was all I could afford at the time. I still have that helm, but have since become a somewhat more accurate Crusader.
I guess the big thing is for the new folks, is to be reasonable with outfitting them because as we all know its easy to acquire a pile of gear we dont use.
Newbies come and go and some end up staying for a long while
the best thing we can do is help each other out and use common sense when getting kitted up.------------------
<A HREF="http://www.hosekileather.homestead.com" TARGET=_blank>
www.hosekileather.homestead.com
</A> "There was great wailing and gnashing of teeth"
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Morgan
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I agree with what Rhys said above. I'm really TRIED of having to use parenthetical expressions when I explain explain why something is not historically accurate to someone, but at least I'm not widely thought of as an ass-hole.
I get annoyed at my local practices because every new fighter gets the "beginner set from Ashcraft Baker" schpiel from several people and when I say, "But for not much more you can actually look good" they roll their eyes and do the "armour whore" comedy routine. But I'm used to it and it's not hard to counteract.
I get annoyed at my local practices because every new fighter gets the "beginner set from Ashcraft Baker" schpiel from several people and when I say, "But for not much more you can actually look good" they roll their eyes and do the "armour whore" comedy routine.
But I'm used to it and it's not hard to counteract.-
Ambrogio
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For those into early period:
http://uk.geocities.com/the_isles/flamewar/armour4.htm
If you want the rest it's:
http://uk.geocities.com/the_isles/artsofwar.htm
Most of it done by Michael Lacy and Paul Blackwell aka Michael de Lacy and Paul de Gorey.
http://uk.geocities.com/the_isles/flamewar/armour4.htm
If you want the rest it's:
http://uk.geocities.com/the_isles/artsofwar.htm
Most of it done by Michael Lacy and Paul Blackwell aka Michael de Lacy and Paul de Gorey.
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Lord William Avery
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http://www.brighthelm.org/
Follow the link to the article page and find Paul's most excellent manual of armour construction.!
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Data Fata Secitus
Follow the link to the article page and find Paul's most excellent manual of armour construction.!
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Data Fata Secitus
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by FrauHirsch:
<B> Lubeck,
If a sword is too heavy, it can cause tendonitis in a few practices and that's it for her. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ah, I am just as much to blame for this then as the others. I know there are a few women locally who use the same kits as men and have heavy swords. I assumed that the sword weight was compattable and the basket hitlts were standard. I did not realize that a modification could be necessary as a safety issue. I am completly accepting of all safety concers. My knight recently told me to get her shield restrapped for safety sake and I had it done before the next practice. I personally faught with the same shield style and strap arrangement fot 2 years, but the told nme that he felt it was unsafe and asked me to change it. I guess I just need to get to accept the style of the comments and not the tone. I'll have the sword shaved my next week.
<B> Lubeck,
If a sword is too heavy, it can cause tendonitis in a few practices and that's it for her. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ah, I am just as much to blame for this then as the others. I know there are a few women locally who use the same kits as men and have heavy swords. I assumed that the sword weight was compattable and the basket hitlts were standard. I did not realize that a modification could be necessary as a safety issue. I am completly accepting of all safety concers. My knight recently told me to get her shield restrapped for safety sake and I had it done before the next practice. I personally faught with the same shield style and strap arrangement fot 2 years, but the told nme that he felt it was unsafe and asked me to change it. I guess I just need to get to accept the style of the comments and not the tone. I'll have the sword shaved my next week.
The way I’ve always tried to look at new people buying armor is that no one is rich beyond their wildest dreams. In order to buy a set of armor you need to invest some serious cash.
That being said, unless you’re buying plastic armor and a spun top helm, it’s not going to be cheap. I always tell people to get some decent with the advice to match some sort of armor. Unless you want gothic plate or crusader maille, you can match a kit for roughly the same as a mismatched one. It just takes a bit more time and effort.
That being said, unless you’re buying plastic armor and a spun top helm, it’s not going to be cheap. I always tell people to get some decent with the advice to match some sort of armor. Unless you want gothic plate or crusader maille, you can match a kit for roughly the same as a mismatched one. It just takes a bit more time and effort.
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Talon-of-Pentwyvern
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"......trainers and role models do not encourage new combatants to get through the process of being safe for authorization and then work on "what's wrong with your kit/style in my opinion". "
I hated fighting for almost eight years because my gear sucked... Now when talking with new fighter I strongly encourage that they are comfortable with their gear.
I have trained and help equip new several fighters, men and women. Often changing the location/type of a buckle or shaving some ratan makes all the difference in the world. How can we expect new fighters to be excited about improving there skill if there still fighting there armour.
Lubeck,
At a guess, I'm the source of at leat two of your comments. I didn't mean to step on your toes, I should be at meeting this week if you want to talk about it further.
Sgt. Talon
I hated fighting for almost eight years because my gear sucked... Now when talking with new fighter I strongly encourage that they are comfortable with their gear.
I have trained and help equip new several fighters, men and women. Often changing the location/type of a buckle or shaving some ratan makes all the difference in the world. How can we expect new fighters to be excited about improving there skill if there still fighting there armour.
Lubeck,
At a guess, I'm the source of at leat two of your comments. I didn't mean to step on your toes, I should be at meeting this week if you want to talk about it further.
Sgt. Talon
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Guest
Morgan,
I currently use a complete Ashcraft Baker plate harness(full plate, not their bare basics kit). Is it historically accurate-god no! That said, it's my first suit of armor, it was in my price range, and they didn't tell me that they werent currently accepting orders, or that it would be at least a year before they could fill my order. Trust me, i looked at every armory i could find a listing for, and my first choices were all "high end" armorers. But, either i couldn't afford their prices or they had such a huge backlog that i was basically forced into a "munition grade" suit unless i wanted to just use plastic loaner gear at practices for my first year without being able to fight at events or tournies(can't authorize in loaner gear here). I look at this as my "training armor" that can get all dented and dinged up as i learn to fight, as well as giving me armor to wear while i wait for comission slots to open up and for my "good stuff" to actually be made.
Now, if im still fighting in this stuff in 3 years, feel free to come kick the crud out of me, because then i deserve it.
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Otto von Aachen
Kingdom of the Outlands, Canton of Hawks Hollow
I currently use a complete Ashcraft Baker plate harness(full plate, not their bare basics kit). Is it historically accurate-god no! That said, it's my first suit of armor, it was in my price range, and they didn't tell me that they werent currently accepting orders, or that it would be at least a year before they could fill my order. Trust me, i looked at every armory i could find a listing for, and my first choices were all "high end" armorers. But, either i couldn't afford their prices or they had such a huge backlog that i was basically forced into a "munition grade" suit unless i wanted to just use plastic loaner gear at practices for my first year without being able to fight at events or tournies(can't authorize in loaner gear here). I look at this as my "training armor" that can get all dented and dinged up as i learn to fight, as well as giving me armor to wear while i wait for comission slots to open up and for my "good stuff" to actually be made.
Now, if im still fighting in this stuff in 3 years, feel free to come kick the crud out of me, because then i deserve it.
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Otto von Aachen
Kingdom of the Outlands, Canton of Hawks Hollow
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Talon-of-Pentwyvern:
<B>.
Lubeck,
At a guess, I'm the source of at leat two of your comments. I didn't mean to step on your toes, I should be at meeting this week if you want to talk about it further.
Sgt. Talon </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not privy to where the comments came from. But thanks for your help with training. Lets get together after meeting if you have the time so we both have time to get some practice in.
<B>.
Lubeck,
At a guess, I'm the source of at leat two of your comments. I didn't mean to step on your toes, I should be at meeting this week if you want to talk about it further.
Sgt. Talon </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not privy to where the comments came from. But thanks for your help with training. Lets get together after meeting if you have the time so we both have time to get some practice in.