I have to teach a fencer

freiman the minstrel · Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:20 am

Guys,

It looks like I will be progressing into something new.

I have to teach an SCA fencer.

Here's the problem. I don't fence.

I am in a local group that has a long history of being really good at fencing. We have a former regional fencing marshal, and a couple of fencers and some dual stylists.

But lately we have had a real attendance problem. The fencers just aren't showing up. I have had one "Huah" fencer wanna be cooling his heels for several months. It is very frustrating.

So I am going to start a fencing program. We need the fencers.

What should I do?

Oh, yeah, I have to do it tomorrow night.

freiman

Titus Flavius · Post by **Titus Flavius** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:48 am

promise the experienced fencers cookies and chocolate cakes...

that might get them out of hiding....

lure them in, that if they come, you will hold a fine fencing tournament this summer...

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 8:57 am

Freiman,

There's lots of good resources out there for teaching. A quick google ought to get you some good results. In the meantime, here's some drills that might help. Have them look up & read Di Grassi, Capo Ferro, Saviolo, and Silver.

Take your rapier, and draw small circles around a doorknob. Half circles in all directions, circles counter and clockwise.

Tell them to hang a small jar lid about solar plexus height, and tell them to start target practice. A wonderful and highly frustrating drill.

Basic stance. Have their feet in an 'L' shape, with their heels under their shoulders (a la, feet slightly spread). The foot nearest their opponent should point towards their opponent, and the back foot should be on a perpendicular from their opponent. Take a similar stance across from them, and practice moving back & forth around the room with them. The key is, you want them to keep the same distance from you no matter where either of you move.

That ought to at least get you started. Jon Barber and Blackstone on this forum ought to be able to pitch in some good stuff too. OY! BARBER! Got anything to add?

Guy Dawkins · Post by **Guy Dawkins** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:09 am

And get a copy of your Kingdom rules. Let the new guy read them over. He has to anyway so start him off there.

Where is your rapier marshal. Call him up. It's his/her responsibility to get a new person going in the right direction. If you get no response from him/her then move up the chain of command and contact the regional marshal.

Try to find out why the fencers left. Maybe they found another practice site that was more convienent as to location or time.

Jost von Aichstadt · Post by **Jost von Aichstadt** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:11 am

Responding to Freiman's question, his Excellency, Baron Alejandro posts some suggestions.

And they sound like good suggestions. Certainly, they may have the effect that they give the prospective fencer something to *do*, and may keep him from slipping away in disgust.

However: practice doesn't improve. It cements. If he does these drills in the absence of a teacher, he'll inavoidably develop bad habits.

I'm for the cookies suggestion. Get your experienced fencers out. Or take him to them.

Guy Dawkins's suggestion is on point: contact the rapier marshal.

Jon Barber · Post by **Jon Barber** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:20 am

Baron Alejandro wrote:There's lots of good resources out there for teaching. A quick google ought to get you some good results. In the meantime, here's some drills that might help. Have them look up & read Di Grassi, Capo Ferro, Saviolo, and Silver.

Take your rapier, and draw small circles around a doorknob. Half circles in all directions, circles counter and clockwise.

Tell them to hang a small jar lid about solar plexus height, and tell them to start target practice. A wonderful and highly frustrating drill.

Basic stance. Have their feet in an 'L' shape, with their heels under their shoulders (a la, feet slightly spread). The foot nearest their opponent should point towards their opponent, and the back foot should be on a perpendicular from their opponent. Take a similar stance across from them, and practice moving back & forth around the room with them. The key is, you want them to keep the same distance from you no matter where either of you move.

That ought to at least get you started. Jon Barber and Blackstone on this forum ought to be able to pitch in some good stuff too. OY! BARBER! Got anything to add?

These tips will work to keep them around, but like Jost said they are likely to develop bad habits through repetition without someone to show them how to do things correctly. Still, there's some things you can do.

there's some SCA fencing resources out there:

http://www.latourdulac.com/fencing/syllabus.htm
http://homepage.mac.com/ap_llywelyn/SCA ... troduction
http://www.neversimple.com/manuals/Rapi ... llText.doc
http://www.sca.org.au/rapier/guild_arti ... Techniques

(NB: I am not endorsing any of the material linked to above, just trying to give you some material to work from until you can get an experienced fencing type to show up and teach. None of the methods above are how I would teach a new person, but I'm not in your position *g*)

The footwork drill Alejandro outlined will work. Make sure they focus on taking small steps (no more than their foot's length forward or backwards). They should be keeping their upper body steady while stepping; no bobbing up and down. Try to keep the distance between the two of you the same while stepping; this will help them learn to control distance consciously.

Anything that teaches them point control is good. Mark out spots on a wall with tape and have them hit them from varying angles. The jar lid/doorknob things work.

Get an experienced person to come out. Bribe them, shame them (this one works on me), bully them - or just ask them. There is no substitute for an experienced teacher. The materials above, Alejandro's suggestions, and whatever else people add will at least get you started and give them more than enough to work on for a few weeks (heh - I'd have them doing footwork and lunges for a month, minimum).

Hrogn · Post by **Hrogn** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:25 am

I've always thought fencing would be fun.

I would try using a big round shield for an off-hand weapon. I would then close quickly on them in large dominating steps, block their rapiers, throw that big shield up towards their face to blind them, followed by a big ole sky wrap. Just pull the wrap at the end and turn it into a big draw cut up their backs. I think that should work and is probably fencing legal-ish as long as you pull the wrap. :lol:

Seriously, I don't fence so I can't really help you, I would probably end up comparing it to spear fighting if I was in you shoes at which point you would be talking about dominance of center and understanding and controlling range. Accuracy and tip control would be important and there would probably be a lot less productive things that you could do than work on targeting drills for them. ex.) Put little pieces of duct tape on the wall and have them poke them.

At the end of the day, if you just go out and have a fun evening so they want to play again next week, you will have succeeded in the most important part of it all. Having fun.

Hrogn

DELETEMYACCOUNT · Post by **DELETEMYACCOUNT** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:08 pm

Step one. Ingest LOTS of estrogen.
Step two. Put on some music. Wham should work just fine for this.
Step three. Do what comes naturally under those circumstances.
You'll do fine.

:lol:

jester · Post by **jester** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:13 pm

You could always try the abbreviated Spanish school of rapier. Stand in a balanced posture with your sword shoulder facing your opponent. Extend your arm aat full length with the sword pointing at the base of your opponent's throat. Eventually he will impale himself on your sword. The trick, and it's a big one, is to always keep the point aimed at that target point. And be very, very, very patient.

Good luck.

Anton · Post by **Anton** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:32 pm

Animal

I usually try to keep my pro-heavy stick jock bias under my hat... but that was damn funny. I have a practice tonight that is 1/2 fencers... I'm going to be cracking up because of that... any bruises I get due to lack of concentration are your fault.

Anton

Jon Barber · Post by **Jon Barber** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:34 pm

Animal Weretiger wrote:Step one. Ingest LOTS of estrogen.
Step two. Put on some music. Wham should work just fine for this.
Step three. Do what comes naturally under those circumstances.
You'll do fine.

I prefer something like Clannad, because the soothing rhythms help me swing the stick with less effort and helps drown out the clanking of the armor...

oh...
wait...
we were talking about *fencing* :lol:

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:52 pm

Hear hear, what the above persons said. Barber is right on about doing it correctly so as to prevent bad habits. Mostly, my suggestions were good for 'get 'em on the field and keep some interest', especially given your short time frame.

Oh, and Animal, when you grow the b@lls to fight with actual steel instead of unfinished furniture you just let us know, sweetie. :twisted:

More smilies to emphasize kidding-ness.

Alejandro

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:07 pm

Guy Dawkins wrote:
Where is your rapier marshal. Call him up. It's his/her responsibility to get a new person going in the right direction. If you get no response from him/her then move up the chain of command and contact the regional marshal.

DING, DING, DING!!! what he said. Get your Rapier Marshal involved.

DELETEMYACCOUNT · Post by **DELETEMYACCOUNT** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:43 pm

All kidding aside, the observation I've made over and over again about SCA fencing is that they go out of their way to AVOID hitting each other. I'm totally hooked on the impact of rattan fighting. Personally I'd LOVE to fight with steel swords again but I dont see any fun in limiting targets or pulling shots. Dont get me wrong. I dont hit as hard as I can with rattan either, but there's a difference between pulling a shot and just not hitting as hard as you can.
If there were a way to 'fence' with a cursive saber and a round shield with real impact involved I'd jump all over that. I would totally use the armor I have now too, but if face thrusts were gonna be done I'd wanna do something about my bargrill.

Vladimir · Post by **Vladimir** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:44 pm

When I tried to get fencing back in my barony I held a contest.

I had a new epee blade donated by triplette and started in September. Each week at practice I would except one formal challenge. If that fencer beat me he or she was awarded a bead. The challenge was due to end at the last practice before our Ice Castle event in January.

After that last practice, whoever had the most beads won the new blade. The fencers started crawling out of the woodwork then.

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:47 pm

Animal Weretiger wrote:All kidding aside, the observation I've made over and over again about SCA fencing is that they go out of their way to AVOID hitting each other. I'm totally hooked on the impact of rattan fighting. Personally I'd LOVE to fight with steel swords again but I dont see any fun in limiting targets or pulling shots. Dont get me wrong. I dont hit as hard as I can with rattan either, but there's a difference between pulling a shot and just not hitting as hard as you can.
If there were a way to 'fence' with a cursive saber and a round shield with real impact involved I'd jump all over that. I would totally use the armor I have now too, but if face thrusts were gonna be done I'd wanna do something about my bargrill.

Animal, I do this. Only difference is that I pull my shots, because I like the people I fight with. I'll send you a PM.

Jost von Aichstadt · Post by **Jost von Aichstadt** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:50 pm

Animal Weretiger wrote:All kidding aside, the observation I've made over and over again about SCA fencing is that they go out of their way to AVOID hitting each other.

Close, but not quite. With steel, we go out of our way to avoid hitting each other HARD. You're right, although it's a very pleasant game (and in fact, I do much more fencing than "fighting" in the sca), it lacks that martial verity of stout blows.

Animal Weretiger wrote:If there were a way to 'fence' with a cursive saber and a round shield with real impact involved I'd jump all over that. I would totally use the armor I have now too, but if face thrusts were gonna be done I'd wanna do something about my bargrill.

Good news. It's called "cut and thrust" (formerly sidesword), and we believe that it's coming back soon, but no longer as an experiment. It's not full force (but then, neither is rattan), but it's percussive, and the force is much more than with regular fencing. Thrusts are part of the game, so you'll definitely have to do something about the bargrill. Curved swords are part of fencing now in most kingdoms. Of course, there's nothing stopping you from doing this outside the sca anytime you wish.

DELETEMYACCOUNT · Post by **DELETEMYACCOUNT** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:51 pm

It's not about not liking people. I tend to like most of the people I fight with too. And the last thing I'd wanna do is injure them. I'm not talking about rapiers and foils, I mean a saber. Cutting and some thrusting. The edge would have to be dull obviously but I'd still have to be able to hit people before I'd be happy. IMO anything else is just posing that's why it isnt for me.
I'm not knocking the people that love that sort of thing, it's just not what I'm looking for is all.

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:54 pm

Animal Weretiger wrote:I'm not knocking the people that love that sort of thing, it's just not what I'm looking for is all.

With respect, i call bullsht.

Animal Weretiger wrote:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 5:08 pm Post subject:
Step one. Ingest LOTS of estrogen.
Step two. Put on some music. Wham should work just fine for this.
Step three. Do what comes naturally under those circumstances.
You'll do fine.

You do knock it, and the people who do it. You do it jokingly, but you do it.

DELETEMYACCOUNT · Post by **DELETEMYACCOUNT** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:13 pm

With respect kidding is different. Humor makes the difference in intent.

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:27 pm

Fair enough.

Guy Dawkins · Post by **Guy Dawkins** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:09 pm

Animal Weretiger wrote:All kidding aside, the observation I've made over and over again about SCA fencing is that they go out of their way to AVOID hitting each other.

The point is to avoid GETTING hit. I love hitting the other guy!

And I prefer Sinatra. :lol:

Jon Barber · Post by **Jon Barber** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:44 pm

Animal Weretiger wrote: It's not about not liking people. I tend to like most of the people I fight with too. And the last thing I'd wanna do is injure them. I'm not talking about rapiers and foils, I mean a saber. Cutting and some thrusting. The edge would have to be dull obviously but I'd still have to be able to hit people before I'd be happy. IMO anything else is just posing that's why it isnt for me.

You mean something like this?
[img]http://www.alcheminc.com/shamshir.jpg[/img]

or this?

[img]http://www.popinj.com/saber%203.jpg[/img]

Like Jost says, if the cut and thrust rules are passed you can use these to, well, cut *and* thrust. Not just the draw cuts in standard SCA rapier, but percussive cuts. Still nothing compared to the force of rattan combat shots, but a good step up.

Besides, nothing's stopping you from doing that very thing outside the SCA. I've bouted with blunted 1796 British cavalry sabres. Good stuff.

Animal Weretiger wrote: I'm not knocking the people that love that sort of thing, it's just not what I'm looking for is all.

It's one of the things I do. I also fight SCA heavy combat, bout with steel/aluminum blunt trainers of various types (with plenty of protective gear), modified shinai weapons, padded canes/staves with minimal armor - it's all good. Gotta be well-rounded and all that *g*.

jester · Post by **jester** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:55 pm

If Cut and Thrust is everything that folks are playing it up to be then it should be a tremendous amount of fun. On the other hand, it's been in a close to the chest development limbo for the past several months (almost a year isn't it?) so I have no idea what equipment will be required, how to get my aluminum blunts tested for safety, etc... And if force levels between two infomred participants are higher than usual (while still consistent with safety) then who's going to complain?

Jost von Aichstadt · Post by **Jost von Aichstadt** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:06 pm

jester wrote:If Cut and Thrust is everything that folks are playing it up to be then it should be a tremendous amount of fun. On the other hand, it's been in a close to the chest development limbo for the past several months (almost a year isn't it?) so I have no idea what equipment will be required, how to get my aluminum blunts tested for safety, etc... And if force levels between two infomred participants are higher than usual (while still consistent with safety) then who's going to complain?

Hi Jester!

1) It hasn't been in development limbo - it was an experiment ("sidesword") for a while, then the experiment was ended by the former SEM. It's under serious review by the current SEM (blessed be his name), and should be coming to kingdoms near you soon. The East is putting together its cut and thrust rules as I write this. I don't know what the situation is where you are.
2) The rules will be very much like what they were for the sidesword experiment in some places - but more consistent between kingdoms. Minimums: Take the regular rapier armor, add elbow athletic pads or equivalent, add "rigid" protection to the back of the head and neck, and you're there. I recommend more, though I have often played in less.
3) Aluminum blades? Nope, sorry. As far as I know none are permitted. And I think that's a good thing: the force levels sawtooth them very quickly.
4) Force levels higher than usual while still consistent with safety? That might be a kingdom thing, but "consistent with safety" is the edge criterion, so you should be fun. Get out of control, or hurt people, and you'll lose your card. At least that's how it'll happen here in the East (I ran the sidesword experiment, and I'm likely to be the lead cut and thrust marshal)

5) It is a tremendous amount of fun.

Blackstone · Post by **Blackstone** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:41 pm

Jost von Aichstadt wrote:Hi Jester!

1) It hasn't been in development limbo - it was an experiment ("sidesword") for a while, then the experiment was ended by the former SEM. It's under serious review by the current SEM (blessed be his name), and should be coming to kingdoms near you soon. The East is putting together its cut and thrust rules as I write this. I don't know what the situation is where you are.
.

I guess you'd have to ask the Outlands KRM. Luckily, I know him well. :) (FUNNY THAT).

Jester, if you have questions about this -- ask me. I'm more than happy to discuss it and have done so, pretty publicly. I'm not actively working on the rules at the current time for a couple of reasons.

I am, personally, a sidesword advocate. I remain to be convinced that it's effective in this Kingdom, in the SCA. If it doesn't, I'll keep fighting in my back yard. I am waiting to see what happens this coming weekend and trying not to run down and hassle His Grace about it.

Anyway. Got to start working. Customer staring at me as I type.

-- Charles, Outlands KRM

iomtalach · Post by **iomtalach** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:27 pm

Hrogn wrote:I've always thought fencing would be fun.

I would try using a big round shield for an off-hand weapon. I would then close quickly on them in large dominating steps, block their rapiers, throw that big shield up towards their face to blind them, followed by a big ole sky wrap. Just pull the wrap at the end and turn it into a big draw cut up their backs. I think that should work and is probably fencing legal-ish as long as you pull the wrap.
<snip>
Hrogn

Talk to Oak about that... he uses his cow-horn monster round to fight rapier with. He does pretty good as a rapier fighter. Placed high in the recent Tir Righ principality rapier championship, and did pretty good at 12th night as well.

but, uhm...charging in doesn't work to well. Remember, we aren't wearing armour, so we tend to move...pretty fast. And we always fight people who move fast and dominate.

iomtalach · Post by **iomtalach** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:32 pm

freiman the minstrel wrote:What should I do?
<snip>
freiman

Fight him. What better way to train? Borrow a rapier or just use your heavy gear. Fighting is fighting, if you do it right.

Keep in mind that rapier is supposed to be sharp blades, no limits on target, and no protection, and blow call appropriately. Fun for everyone!

DELETEMYACCOUNT · Post by **DELETEMYACCOUNT** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:51 pm

Oh, I forgot. Pull your underwear up the crack of your butt like a thong too. That'll help your stance.

freiman the minstrel · Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:24 pm

I did it.

Background. We have three distinct groups, separated by distance here. One has a great fighting program that needs no help, and no fencers. One is a group that has a healthy, fighting program that has a few fencers some of whom are experienced enough to burn out. One has one fighter (me) and some scattered artists, and one fencer wanna be. The first and last group are part of a stronghold, and the middle one is our sponsoring shire. Until tomorrow night, I am the KM of the sponsoring shire, and up until about a month ago, I was the KM of the stronghold. Enough background.

I rounded up the fencer wanna be from my area, and drove down to our wednesday night practice, with a heavy fighter newbie.

The fencer I was expecting didn't show, but at this point, I was comitted to pushing the fencing thing, so I also had my own fencing stuff around (a mask, schlager and gloves) and a garment that I figured would serve as a puncture resistant jacket analogue in a pinch.

I went to fight, hoping that we would have some fencers to fence with the guy I brought, and with the other newbie (the no show).

I ended up having to fence with him, or he would not have had a chance to fence at all. Fencing is fun. I like fencing. But I really, really hated taking off my armor to fence with this guy, who did not deserve any resentment.

We have instead decided to fence here in Vilseck as the army gives him time. I am able to finagle time during the day with enough advanced notice, and it doesn't make sense to have him have to drive an hour away from home to fence with a guy who lives ten minutes from him. I also don't ever want to have to take my armor off in the middle of fighter practice to fence with him. He doesn't deserve me being angry with him just because he wants to play. And I told the truth, I do like fencing, just not at the expense of skipping part of practice.

freiman

Blackstone · Post by **Blackstone** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:59 am

freiman the minstrel wrote:
I ended up having to fence with him, or he would not have had a chance to fence at all. Fencing is fun. I like fencing. But I really, really hated taking off my armor to fence with this guy, who did not deserve any resentment.

Yeah. It's not easy being a cross-dresser at one practice. I'm fortunate in that:
a) I have a backyard practice
b) Generally, the fencers arrive at our practice later and so I can suit down and THEN go and fence.

I love to fence. I'm enjoying learning to fight. I want to do both. Now all I need is a time turner.

Maelgwyn · Post by **Maelgwyn** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 12:15 pm

As I always say, I like to know what century it is when I get dressed in the morning. I wear a completely different set of clothing and gear for 16th century rapier combat than what I wear for 6th century armoured combat and I hate trying to switch in a hurry. In Ansteorra changing gear mid-event usually means changing clothes in a hot tent in the middle of the day which is no fun at all. It sounds to me like you have found a good solution.

I have to teach a fencer

I have to teach a fencer

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