Using a camail (SCA)

Adriano · Post by **Adriano** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:03 am

My steel gorget provides good protection, but sometimes my helm bangs against it in the back, and I've never liked having something around my neck. Meridian regs allow me to substitute a heavy camail attached to the helm, so I was thinking of doing that. (I've almost got my hauberk finished, so I'm already set up to make more mail.) I'd probably use an expanding circular pattern and affix it to the bottom of the bargrill, and lace it to holes on the lower rim of the helm.

Before I start the project, I was hoping to hear from guys who use one in SCA fighting. Does it provide adequate protection if you get hit? Does it impede the movement of your head? My neck connects my head to my body, so I want to take care of it.

Broadway · Post by **Broadway** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:49 am

Pic of my current helm

I made the aventail with 14g stainless links from theringlord.com

Its sewn to a leather strap which is laced to the helm through vervailles (sp?).

Its expanded ring method, and works just fine. After this picture was taken, I added about 6 more rows of links, because, when it was this short, it tended to flip up in the air if I ducked or moved left or right real quick.

I like it. Works well, and sufficiently protects me from shots. I've been hit in the throat by a few spear shots, and the side of the neck once, and other than a bit of innitial discomfort, it wasn't too bad.

Anjouleme · Post by **Anjouleme** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:56 am

Well, I'm not a guy, but I do use a long heavy aventail attached to my helmet. (A pic can be found here: http://65.64.145.141/photos/images/Howl-Spring2004/photos/photo_40.html ) With it on, my helmet weighs oh I can't remember if its 17 or 13 pounds, but its a lot. The aventail actually covers my shoulders and acts to nicely distribute the weight of the helmet across my shoulders so that my neck isn't having to sustain that weight on its own. I'm not a delicate chick, but I do have a long slender neck. With the aventail, I've never had a problem with blows or injuries to the neck. Because the aventail is long, blow force is usually nicely diffused. I do, however, wear a leather dog collar with some padding as a "just in case" precaution. I've gone without it, but I like the security blanket factor it provides.

Adriano · Post by **Adriano** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:01 am

Dante, that's one beautiful helm! (Mine looks like crap.)

I thought I might hang some heavy leather from the bottom of the bargrill, under the mail.

Ceddie · Post by **Ceddie** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:07 am

IF the mail is solid enough and IF the helm fits right and IF you take care of your stuff and keep the leather in good repair, you should be fine.
I fight in a 14ga, 5/16 SS camail and have for 4+ years with no problems. Poles, spears, lots of swords have hit it with no real discomfort, one Crossbow bolt left a red mark (1000 lb bow at @ 10ft). It hurt more to get hit with a gourget than with just the mail.
My wife fights with a riveted 16ga 5/16 SS for just under 3 years with no problems.

It's your neck, if you feel safe with it, you can do it and be safe.

Adriano · Post by **Adriano** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 10:17 am

Thanks, all! (And Anjouleme, I was using "guys" in the generic sense; I certainly didn't intend to disregard or disrespect female fighters. Your camail looks great.)

blackbow · Post by **blackbow** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:35 am

Adriano: I use a camail and haven't had a significant problem, save one time when I was on my knees and got a wrap shot directly to the big neck bone. It lit up my entire spinal column for a nanosecond. Now every so often I get that same effect for just a split second. I'd recommend some padding over that big neck bone in addition to the camail even though the rules don't require it. Padding only; nothing rigid needed.

Regards,

Jonathan Blackbow

blackbow · Post by **blackbow** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:36 am

Anjouleme wrote:Well, I'm not a guy, but I do use a long heavy aventail attached to my helmet. (A pic can be found here: http://65.64.145.141/photos/images/Howl-Spring2004/photos/photo_40.html ) With it on, my helmet weighs oh I can't remember if its 17 or 13 pounds, but its a lot. The aventail actually covers my shoulders and acts to nicely distribute the weight of the helmet across my shoulders so that my neck isn't having to sustain that weight on its own. I'm not a delicate chick, but I do have a long slender neck. With the aventail, I've never had a problem with blows or injuries to the neck. Because the aventail is long, blow force is usually nicely diffused. I do, however, wear a leather dog collar with some padding as a "just in case" precaution. I've gone without it, but I like the security blanket factor it provides.

Anjou: I bet you'll also find that having all that weight below neck level dramatically affects any thrusts that hit you in the face - your neck doesn't snap back as badly.

Regards,

Jonathan Blackbow

Anjouleme · Post by **Anjouleme** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:33 pm

Adriano wrote:Thanks, all! (And Anjouleme, I was using "guys" in the generic sense; I certainly didn't intend to disregard or disrespect female fighters. Your camail looks great.)

LOL. Certainly no disrespect taken. I just like to throw in a lil elbow nudge once in a while. :lol:

Anjouleme · Post by **Anjouleme** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:39 pm

blackbow wrote:Anjou: I bet you'll also find that having all that weight below neck level dramatically affects any thrusts that hit you in the face - your neck doesn't snap back as badly.

Actually, you're probably right. Its rare that my head snaps back. If it does, my helmet is so heavy that I'm usually carried right to the ground. That's a VERY VERY rare occurrance (like maybe once in 9 or so years of fighting). Don't get me wrong. I've been thrusted by spear shots hard enough to move my helmet 45 degrees to the left around my head, but its rare that the head does any snappin'.

Charles the Brown · Post by **Charles the Brown** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 1:51 pm

I am a new fighter, by no means as experienced as the many others that have already posted.

I used a camail for my first year of fighting. I loved it, but it was butted zinc and after some fun times it was too broken to be used any more. So I had to remove it and use a gorget. I hate it. Many people have tried to tell me that a camail is not at protective, I think it is more. My head moves more now when hit than it did with the camail. I have had lots of thrusts that didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t hurt in my camail that hurts now with the gorget. My helmet felt LIGHTER because of the more even weight distribution. Basically I want my camail back. Gorgets are evil.

Cedric · Post by **Cedric** » Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:32 pm

I currently use both a camail and a lightly padded leather gorget.

Used to just fight in the camail, but decided taking chances with my neck wasnt the best idea in the world.

Thorgrim_sca · Post by **Thorgrim_sca** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 12:05 am

my gorget is a collar with front & rear bib, and with thick padding. The way I made it, the bibs can be worn either inside or outside the cuirass. I wear it inside so it dsnt flop around. Eventually I may compliment this with a camail.

Dante, is that your new helm? Looks great. Do you still use the sallet you had?

=====
Thorgrim Thiggvarsson

Broadway · Post by **Broadway** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:29 am

Dante, is that your new helm? Looks great. Do you still use the sallet you had?

No, and no.

I de-volved... I ditched the sallet and went back to my old bascinet (in pic). Its temporary till the Onion Top from Illusion arrives later this summer.

mordreth · Post by **mordreth** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:32 am

I fight in gorget, padded arming hood, and coif, so not quite the same thing as a camail but
quite a few years ago I was fightinga largish duke, he went for a thrust, and had his foot slip so the shot went into my throat with all of his body behind it. I think I would have been in serious trouble without the final layer taking the impact.
I armor my joints, throat, head, and squishy bits for a worst case scenario, and leave the rest of my body to take its chances through a gambeson and hauberk
your maileage may vary

Adriano · Post by **Adriano** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:11 am

Thanks for all the input, guys (including you female guys!) Ironically (or stupidly) it wasn't until after I started this thread that I actually started experimenting to see if a camail was really practical for me. I used an old "Bishop's Mantle" that I'd made back around 1982, and found that in combination with the squareness of my shoulders, the extra padding on the shoulders of my gambeson, my helmet and my particular neck, a camail suspended from the helmet might not be a good option for me; seems to really restrict how much I can move my head.

But I still love the look of that mantle of mail beneath the helmet (and it's present in almost all the contemporary depictions). So I'm thinking I might take the old mantle and attach it to a heavy leather collar that would be more comfortable than my steel gorget. (The mantle is kind of unusual: 12 gauge galvanized, 3/4" ID, 6-in-1 pattern.)

So, feel free to call me an idiot. Adios!

Duke Gunnar · Post by **Duke Gunnar** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:22 pm

I had exactly the same problem when I tried a camail. I found that wearing a small gorget and a coif worked well for me. It does not restrict my movement like the camail did.

Blaine de Navarre · Post by **Blaine de Navarre** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:29 pm

Maybe I'm just a wussy pencil-neck, but I don't like the added weight of a butted camail. I'm currently using a riveted aluminum one; the weight is nice, but it doesn't stand up well to SCA combat. I'm saving my pennies for one of Master Knuut's titanium ones...

Konstantin the Red · Post by **Konstantin the Red** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:56 am

Adriano wrote:Thanks for all the input, guys (including you female guys!) Ironically (or stupidly) it wasn't until after I started this thread that I actually started experimenting to see if a camail was really practical for me. I used an old "Bishop's Mantle" that I'd made back around 1982, and found that in combination with the squareness of my shoulders, the extra padding on the shoulders of my gambeson, my helmet and my particular neck, a camail suspended from the helmet might not be a good option for me; seems to really restrict how much I can move my head.

But I still love the look of that mantle of mail beneath the helmet (and it's present in almost all the contemporary depictions). So I'm thinking I might take the old mantle and attach it to a heavy leather collar that would be more comfortable than my steel gorget. (The mantle is kind of unusual: 12 gauge galvanized, 3/4" ID, 6-in-1 pattern.)

I had the same problem when I tried enlarging my E4-1 camail, so I suspect your problem here is that bishop's-mantle needs to shrink down some inches. The greater weight of the enlarged camail made turning my head very difficult, and removing the extra fixed the problem.

If you turn the camail back into a mantle, you'll lose the camail's benefits. It's particularly protective of the neck because it's suspended a couple of inches away from your neck on the outside of your bascinet, and because of its mass, and because it drags over the point of your shoulder. All this is a lot for incoming to overcome. It's all accomplished with a camail that extends only a few inches over the point of your shoulder, though. Adding triangular dags after this doesn't drive the weight up very much, so if you want a little extra coverage, use dags.

I used a camail for my first year of fighting. I loved it, but it was butted zinc and after some fun times it was too broken to be used any more. So I had to remove it and use a gorget. I hate it. Many people have tried to tell me that a camail is not at protective, I think it is more. My head moves more now when hit than it did with the camail. I have had lots of thrusts that didnÃ¢â‚¬â„¢t hurt in my camail that hurts now with the gorget. My helmet felt LIGHTER because of the more even weight distribution. Basically I want my camail back. Gorgets are evil.

Charles, build yourself a camail; your reasons for wanting it are all good. Keep the gorget closefitting, so you don't have it clanking on your bascinet like Adriano, and you've got that worst-case defense of a very vulnerable spot, in depth. Covering in leather gets rid of clanking.

AJ · Post by AJ » Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:20 am

Sorry for the small hijacking, but I got a question or two and figured it did not deserve it's own thread.

I have a mantle made of 12ga 3/8" ID galvy of butted mail. It has a 3 or 4 inch neck cone in the middle. I'm going to attempt to attach this to my bascinet helmet as an aventail.

Ok, details covered. How far, or wide, does the aventail have to go/be in order to be SCA Legal for use without a gorget under neath?

Thanks for any help.

wilmot · Post by **wilmot** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 1:37 pm

Adriano,
I would not trust my neck to just chainmail. I had a grand squire who at a Kingdom Crusade felt that the camail was enough but was glad I talked him out of it when he took a VERY HARD pike shot to the Adam's apple and even with a steel gorget and the camail he had to stop for awhile.

Ronald

Koredono · Post by **Koredono** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:11 pm

Blaine de Navarre wrote:Maybe I'm just a wussy pencil-neck, but I don't like the added weight of a butted camail. I'm currently using a riveted aluminum one; the weight is nice, but it doesn't stand up well to SCA combat. I'm saving my pennies for one of Master Knuut's titanium ones...

I have a good friend who, years ago, got a titanium camail, and was amazed by its lightness. It stood up well to abuse, but did not do the thing that a camail is intended to do (at least under our rules) - use the extra intertial mass to suck up kinetic energy. After a few months, he got rid of it, went to a riveted steel camail, and never looked back.

If you're wearing a camail just for looks, not protection, then I'd say, go ahead, have a good time with it, but don't expect it to actually guard your neck at all.

IMO, if someone came to me to get inspected wearing an aluminum or titanium (or any other lightweight material) camail, he'd better also have a gorget underneath it, because that by itself does not protect. It's for those exact same reasons that titanium and aluminum helmets are not allowed - they don't have the requisite mass.

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:39 pm

Adriano,

If you replicate a historical camail, and it's integral padding (a la John the Fearlesses effigy), you should be very well protected.

One of the major drawbacks to most camail reconstructions regarding their protective qualities is that most people omit (have no idea, really that they existed) the proper padding for these mail curtains. It is what give the effigies their distinctive 'bullet headed' shape.

Now, this might restrict your head turning, but if both were done right, I am guessing that it would not constrict it to the point of being unworkable.

mordreth · Post by **mordreth** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:06 pm

I'm going to second Chefs comments about the padding worn under a camail in period - if it's properly tailored it doesn't restrict your movement at all.
As an additional thought a lot of the camails used in the SCA are too small for the helm they are attached to. If you set the vervilles higher on the helm basicly at eyesocket level then they will be at the joint of the cervical vertibrae, and the skull. This will produce a balance for the helmet that is remakibly comfortible, and which will cancel out a great deal of the perceived weight of the mail.

Adriano · Post by **Adriano** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:22 pm

Chef -- excellent point; it makes sense that there would have been padding.

Mordreth -- if I understand you, you're talking about attaching the camail higher up on the helmet, not right at the bottom. Interesting -- that would give the mail more room to flex when I turn my head.

Thanks, guys; I'll have to experiment with this stuff. I may have to give up my 23-year-old thing; maybe there's a reason you don't see a lot of 12-gauge 3/4" ID 6-in-1 mail.

mordreth · Post by **mordreth** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 2:49 pm

I tend to think bascinet when I hear aventale - historicly they seemed to be anchored much higher up on the helm than is common in the SCA