Questions about dishing by machine.

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 7:09 pm

Ok I've already got an air planisher that will planish 12ga so I've got that down. I want a way to dish stuff out that won't mean me hammering.

Thought about doin a dishing treadle hammer. But technically that's still me dishing. I need the excercise though.

Another option is basically an air planisher on steroids except electric because I doubt my compressor could run a big air hammer. I'd use a 35 pound wrecking hammer with a dishing bit. and into a depression in a plastic thingy (what kind of plastic am I looking for?) I can borrow a hammer so I don't have to dish out a lot of cash before I find out it doesn't work. I have seen one of these before that did work though.

Another option is pressing which I have no idea about. How big of a press would I need etc.

Anyway if you want to help me out but don't want to share the info with the whole world feel free to e-mail me madmattsarmory@yahoo.ca

Jeff W · Post by **Jeff W** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:45 pm

Greetings
The best machine that I know of for dishing is a modified arbor press.
Let me explain about what I've been using for years.
Take a number 3 arbor press ($100 to 150 usd) mount onto a sturdy stand or table. Make a bottom die (dish) mount to base of press. Make a top die (hammer) mount onto shaft of arbor press. Add 100 lbs of wieght to top of shaft. Replace 2' handle with 4' handle. DISH.
That was the quick and dirty.
Some refinements are interchangable hammers and dishes. For bottom dies I have 3 sizes of dishes (two tank bottoms and one custom made one), 2 lead blocks (for fluting and other shaping), 3 peices of u channel (for curving), for top dies I have 2 hammers ( rounded sledge and rounded 1.25" rod.), 1/2 a maul head (for fluting), 2 "T" heads (pipe mounted perpendiclar to shaft) (for curving). I have others but this is the basics. Also the 100+ lbs mounted to the top of the shaft are wieghtlifting wieghts, I made a collar that fits the shaft with a vertical rod that the wieghts ride on.
Some other points:
A 5 ton (#5) would also work but it is in the $400 plus range. A racheting one will not work.
I like this because I have newbes in my shop, and this is human powered and they are less likey to injure themselves if they are providing the power. One hand holds the work and the other provides power.
The stroke on the shaft is about 2 to 3 ", but it is moving 100+ lbs to the same place every time.
In the past I have done a 16 ga stainless knee cop in about 10 to 15 mins and there is no need to planish (if your dies are smooth). Alum shield bosses take about 15mins. from blank to mounting.
Currently I'm Hot dishing a 12 ga stainless basinet and this is really speeding me along.
Best used by right handed people.
It is not an end all but for about 150usd and some fab time, it is the best investment in armour making.
With this and a b-3 I have made a set of SCA legal fukly armour (minus helm) in just a few hours.
For dishing this is one of the best ways to do it. I threw out my stumps.
Hope this has helped.
Jeff

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:55 pm

Thanks Jeff they sell the 3 ton arbour presses at princess auto (canadian harbour freight equivalent) I'm hoping for something faster though. I can buy a 50ton hydraulic press for a grand canadian how would it work for the job.

Kase Villand · Post by **Kase Villand** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:41 am

Intriguing idea. Jeff, can you snap a picture or two of your setup? I'm just curious about the particulars of how you fabricated the dies and punches.

Thanks!

Kase

SteelWeaver · Post by **SteelWeaver** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:54 am

If you can catch the episode of "how it's made" on discovery about making armour you get get quite a good look at Eric DubÃƒÂ©'s dishing/planishing machine.

a very crude drawing of the setup:
http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... mer9co.jpg

[img]http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/128/crudepowerhammer9co.jpg[/img]

the arm actually wiggles during operation, and the wheel is 90 degrees from what I drew (the motor is sitting on a bracket parallel to the arm)

Is your air planisher the usual air hammer in a C-frame?

Princess auto has an air volume speed control on sale ( http://www.princessauto.com/moreinfo.cf ... 1&SCAN=CAN ) I've ordered it and I'll be giving it a try. I was using a c-clamp vise grip to clamp the trigger, tightening or loosening the knob gave ne a pretty fine control of the hitting force, but vibrations meant frequent ajustments...

Armadillo · Post by **Armadillo** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:18 am

Hello Matt,

There is no need to reinvent the wheel here. Metalshapers are constantly studying this one and there are lots of vintage machines and modern machines made for forming sheet metal...very effective machines. If you spend some time at http://wwwmetalmeet.com you can learn a lot about what people are building and/or modifying for the task.

Pulmax machines and power hammers are sought after tools. There are home-built variations on these as well. Next in line seems to be the helve-hammer, a simple variation of which was illustrated above. This might be your best bet given a limited budget. It doesn't take much skill to build an good helve hammer, and I've beeen impressed with what I have seen in operation.

There seems little point in discussing this here until you take a look at the work of the metalshapers. Those guys are very interested in tools and it would be hard to beat their ingenuity.

Once you see what is being used, then we can discuss the pros and cons of employing them for our side of shaping sheet metal.

Cheers, Adair

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 6:41 pm

I went to a toolroom auction and picked up a large screwpress for US$50, (+ 15% BP, 7% Tax and $35 to get it loaded onto my truck by a rigger)

Very Quiet and a lot of ooomph, the counterbalance is a 400# toroid. Had some fun doing some shield bosses working heavy sheet hot. The mammaform one was interesting...

Thomas

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:19 pm

I like this subject every time it comes around.
The link did not work for me.(wwwmetalmeet.com)

I once saw a design that used a hammer with a cam that lifted it and let it drop. Very cool.

For Mr. Madd... I saw one air hammer dishing machine that used a large industrial air hammer descailer thing about 10" long by 2" dia.

It was clamped in a large I beam frame. The dish was White Delrin plastic. " The hard stuff"...
The rounded hammer ball was made from a trailer hitch ball.
It was welded to the air hammer's tool, cut and modified.

The Air hammer body was clamped to the frame with 3/8" SHCS and had to be adjusted for each piece.
It dished quite fast and deep; however... I was to much of a wimp to operate it.
It vibrated my arms so much in the first 2 seconds that I could not feel my hands.
I lost my grip and the Churberg breastplate started looking like a muscled curass.
The hammer pounded the crap out of it in one spot.
I could not operate it strong enough.

It goes like 10,000 beats per minute... one must move the metal fast enough to match that speed, I could not...

Anyway my.... 2 cents...

Hal

Ps: I was sworn to secrecy to never reveal the location and the armourer who uses this beast....

gryphon223 · Post by **gryphon223** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:58 pm

Halberds wrote:I like this subject every time it comes around.
The link did not work for me.(wwwmetalmeet.com)

Hal, the link ought to be http://www.metalmeet.com/. It looks like Armadillo didn't include the . after the three w's.

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:46 am

Cool site... thanks Mr. Gryphon number 223...

I need some time to browse it.

Hal

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:44 pm

Hal was it westlig stjerne's hamer. I saw that one too.

Haven't had a chance to really look into the metalshapers site yet but I definitly plan too. The thing about the wrecking hamer hammer is it's REALLY cheap for me to make one. Pretty easy too. Can probably do it for under $50

Minotaur · Post by **Minotaur** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:52 pm

To understand just how powerfull a press can be you have to see what it can do.

<a href="http://imageshack.us"><img src="http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9620/bent23pb.jpg" border="0" width="436" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" /></a>

Thats 3/8" steel. I was looking at the psi and not the frame. It got to a little over 15 tons and look what it did! It even got shear cracks in the top middle but the welds look great :lol:

The bottle jacks must not get their rated tons.

<a href="http://imageshack.us"><img src="http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/4379/sheet0ph.jpg" border="0" width="702" alt="Image Hosted by ImageShack.us" /></a>

Its very easy to shear sheet in metal dies. Thats 14 ga hotrolled sheet.

You can cast your own rtv but I have no clue about useing a breaking hammer.

Zweihammer · Post by **Zweihammer** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 12:31 am

Just a word of warning Matt, if you use plastic for either your hammer or your die, don't use anything that will shatter like acrylic. Stick to polyurethanes, UHMW, delrin, vekton or the other names they are sold under.
I have used plastic dies for years, have taught others to do so. They work great, but on one occasion someone mixed a three inch diameter piece of white acrylic in a box with my UHMW (I use remnants from a machine shop for my dies) and it exploded under about 30 tons with a sound like a rifle shot and with enough energy to embed one shard into the drywall. Luckily no one was hurt that time.
Another trick with a press is to line your steel die with 1/4 UHWM and it will prevent the die from coining the workpiece.
A press or power hammer makes a great shop helper.
Cheers, Erick Davidson

Armadillo · Post by **Armadillo** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 10:56 am

http://allshops.org/cgi-bin/communi...order=&asc=DESC

This link should take you to a gallery of home-built helve hammers. Some of them very effective, some very inexpensive, all very interesting.

Cheers, Adair

Jacob · Post by **Jacob** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 1:31 pm

Try here: http://allshops.org/cgi-bin/community/c ... 0155423807

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:52 pm

Ok looked at the helve hammer pics. I think I'm gonna make me one. Got some questions though. I don't quite understand the function of the spring. Is it there so that the stroke can be longer or shorter and the motor can still make it's full turn?

Also I'm thinking I'll pick up an electric motor from princess auto for it and then mount a pully with a peg on the motor to power the hammer. What size of a motor should I be looking for? What speed would be good.

Thanks a lot for all the help. I still haven't figured out how to register for the other forum. But will try again later.

Woodstock · Post by **Woodstock** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:44 pm

Jeff W wrote:Greetings
The best machine that I know of for dishing is a modified arbor press.
Let me explain about what I've been using for years.
Take a number 3 arbor press ($100 to 150 usd) mount onto a sturdy stand or table. Make a bottom die (dish) mount to base of press. Make a top die (hammer) mount onto shaft of arbor press. Add 100 lbs of wieght to top of shaft. Replace 2' handle with 4' handle. DISH.
That was the quick and dirty.
Some refinements are interchangable hammers and dishes. For bottom dies I have 3 sizes of dishes (two tank bottoms and one custom made one), 2 lead blocks (for fluting and other shaping), 3 peices of u channel (for curving), for top dies I have 2 hammers ( rounded sledge and rounded 1.25" rod.), 1/2 a maul head (for fluting), 2 "T" heads (pipe mounted perpendiclar to shaft) (for curving). I have others but this is the basics. Also the 100+ lbs mounted to the top of the shaft are wieghtlifting wieghts, I made a collar that fits the shaft with a vertical rod that the wieghts ride on.
Some other points:
A 5 ton (#5) would also work but it is in the $400 plus range. A racheting one will not work.
I like this because I have newbes in my shop, and this is human powered and they are less likey to injure themselves if they are providing the power. One hand holds the work and the other provides power.
The stroke on the shaft is about 2 to 3 ", but it is moving 100+ lbs to the same place every time.
In the past I have done a 16 ga stainless knee cop in about 10 to 15 mins and there is no need to planish (if your dies are smooth). Alum shield bosses take about 15mins. from blank to mounting.
Currently I'm Hot dishing a 12 ga stainless basinet and this is really speeding me along.
Best used by right handed people.
It is not an end all but for about 150usd and some fab time, it is the best investment in armour making.
With this and a b-3 I have made a set of SCA legal fukly armour (minus helm) in just a few hours.
For dishing this is one of the best ways to do it. I threw out my stumps.
Hope this has helped.
Jeff

Jeff W Do you have any pictures of your set-up this sounds like a great idea for the local SCA group I am with. As someone else mentioned earlier I would also be interested in pics/details of the modifications you made as well.

Armadillo · Post by **Armadillo** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:37 pm

Hey Matt,

Sorry I didn't get back to your post sooner. I am not the most versed on this topic, which is why I directed you to metalmeet, but I will explain to you the theory of a power hammer and why it is more effective than a direct acting mechanism (like a pulmax).

The spring on a power hammer serves two purposes. Primarily, it prevents the shock of impact from transfering to the mechanical linkages.

Secondly, the spring allows the reciprocating mechanism to 'throw' the ram and die as opposed to pushing it. The force ( just like in hand hammering) is magnified by accelleration of a given weight. As the crank or eccentric mechaism winds up, the hammer is pulled beyond the point of top-dead-center, storing energy for the recoil when it is accelerated down towards impact.

Without the spring, a power hammer would be ineffective. There is likeley much more to it, but this is the extent of my understanding. All forging hammers employ a linkage of this nature. If not a mechanical spring or cushion, then a pneumatic or steam buffer.

Inexpensive plans are available for various helve hammers. You should first inquire about sizing for the thickness of material you are working. I have seen photos of some sizeable helve hammers for sheet metal work.

-Adair

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:41 pm

Thanks Armadillo I'd already figured that out but I appreciate the help and probably anyone elce reading this does too.

white mountain armoury · Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:55 am

I use a 25 lb little giant forging hammer, i have a hammer and dish that i can swap out for the standard dies in just a moment or 2, what i realy like about it is that it has a clutch, wooden clutch pads even, pretty old, but i realy like how it works, Armadillos descriprion of the spring is excellent.
A big plus is that it leaves no marks on the steel.
a 25 lb hammer is not very big, Sinric dished a 12 ga close helm top on it and it was hard work for the little hammer.
Its also a plus that because you can feather the clutch You can strike with many diff levels of force, i can lightly tap with it or realy hammer hard.
I plan on moving into a pulmax or simiular machine so i can address some custom auto body things like louvers, something not possible on my little giant.
I was scorned on this forum for using my little giant in this manner but i dont see why, no mods were made to the hammer, i can remove a couple of wedges and swap on diff dies for forging, or dish with it, which it does well

Minotaur · Post by **Minotaur** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:29 am

I was scorned on this forum for using my little giant in this manner but i dont see why

I cant see why anyone would have a problem with it. "Experts" that never make anything always love to tell people how wrong they are, even if something works for them. They always know better. :roll: