Crushing the Weak... A personal failing

[Otto]

One problem in almost any sport I've ever played is that I have a real problem "crushing the weak". I have this rather defective tendency to play at my oponent's level... and when it comes to smaller, weaker, etc. opponents, I find it difficult to just smash them and be done with it. It seems I want to give them a sporting chance, which obviously downgrades MY chances in the contest.

My greatest challenge seems to be facing folks that I just don't feel right abusing.

Anyone else have this problem?

How do you deal with it?

[Titus Flavius]

well i have thought long about this before i started to fight... and find that i will do my best to fight them as any other person.

Because sca is a system of honor, it's rather easy to apply the technique....
just think about how much slight you put on their honor and worth, and how bad they will feel about you when they find out that you did not give them their best...

only by giving them your best, they can improve.. if you do not, they will not improve, and not have as much fun as if you really tried your best against them...

so look at it as your personal honor and reputation that is at stake... and live up to it...

[Duke Gunnar]

It may help if you understand that you are actually insulting you opponent by not fighting your best fight. At a practice you may fight down to your opponents level at times. Remember that even in practice they should get some "A" game fights so they will have a more accurate view of where they are and what they need to do to improve. You are not doing them any favors by taking it easy on them. In a lyst you are insulting them and compromising your own honor if you don't fight your best fight. There is of course a difference between fighting your best fight, and pounding a newby like tent stake.

[Euric Germanicus]

There is of course a difference between fighting your best fight, and pounding a newby like tent stake.

Quoted for truth.

I have a problem smashing someone far less skilled than I. I also have a problem hitting someone in the legs if I know they are not wearing leg armor. This is simply how I play. I will hit them in the legs still, yet pull my shots to a near tap.

Another issue I have is hitting my friends. The people I train with I condsider brothers, and hitting them just isnt a great time. However if I go to a melee or tourney and have to hit people I dont know, my A game comes out, and i suprise myself.

My advice to your question is what my master taught me. Simply go to their level, but a little higher so they have to work for it. If they can kill you on a regular basis there, go higher.

If they ever get cocky, give them one A game fight, then drop back down to the level you were at with them.

I find this works great, as no one wants to go to fight practice and lose every fight. Also try to limit yourself to only the shots they know (if you train them) as it makes things even more equal.

As much of this game is about honor and skill at arms, it's also about fun. Getting destroyed all the time makes this game not fun, and people will stop showing up. I've seen it happen a dozen times at least.

[Hrolfr Ornsson]

[quote="EuricGermanicus

Another issue I have is hitting my friends. The people I train with I condsider brothers, and hitting them just isnt a great time. [/quote]

Friends are my favorite people to hit.

Ok seriously on of my squire brothers and I have a pretty intense rivalry. We are the best of friends don't get me wrong, but no one seems to get a harder fight from me then him. As a side note I started off as his man-at-arms this could be the root of it.

[Euric Germanicus]

Hrolfr,

Squire bothers are of a different color. I beat them without mercy

[Vitus von Atzinger]

If you can crush somebody with ease- I mean utterly smoke them, you have now become obligated to teach them. Something. Anything.
-V

[Thorstenn]

If you can crush somebody with ease- I mean utterly smoke them, you have now become obligated to teach them. Something. Anything.
-V

Very good point Sir Vitus. I wish more people understood that. It also would make a great sig line

[Otto]

Firstly... I have never ever EVER let anyone know or made it obvious that I was being easy on someone.

I guess I'm too soft-hearted... (or is that soft in the head?)... but I could never find it in myself to "smoke" a weaker opponent. I knew who they were and if they really stood a chance or not and modified my game to suit. Note, melee was always too busy... I'd tag folks where it was available.

This problem became especially evident in fencing. You get much gimpier players in that game. We had a couple playing who were in their 60's. How the heck can you abuse grandma and grandpa? How do you abuse the slender young cutie? Most times you know who can test you and who can't. I find it truly hard to just take out the weak ones.

I know it's on my honor to bring my best game to the list... but I really find no honor is smoking the weak. Maybe that's why I always preferred melee. In melee I never had that moral dilema.

[Jehan de Pelham]

"How do you abuse the slender young cutie?"

Your Grace, you don't know?

Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus

[LeeC]

I have always struggled with this. It is one of the main reasons I like SCA war fighting because there I feel totally unfettered in that regard.

I dont neccesarilly have a problem fighting my best, but as much as I like winning, I hate making my opponant lose.

Wierd I know, but true.

[Dalewyn]

At fight practices, I give newby fighters my A game in defence, but my B (or C) game in offence, so they know if they hit me they earned it, but they get a chance to actually swing a few blows before getting hit. When they get better, they go to me A (or B) game as needed.
At tourneys, I always give it my A game.

[dukelogan]

i know the intention wasnt there otto but i have to say that your statements below are pretty insulting. my grandfather, for example, was the toughest guy i have ever met. the man fought in a war, killed a thug with his bare hands when he came across an attempted rape, and was an iron worker in new york for half a century. he almost beat the cancer that took him in his 70s but a few years prior to that he would have done fine in armor or soft kit. he was my grandfather but that didnt make him a lesser man. i wont even address the connotation the "slender young cutie" comment brings about. again, i have no doubt that you were trying to be outrageous or degrading, only that it comes across that way. i hope you can understand my point.

that aside, whether you think you are letting people know you have dropped your game down a notch or not it is eveident to most. or, at least, anyone that has seen you compete. personally i have had lesser skilled fighters come up to me more times than not to thank me for not taking it easy on them. these are the same men that approach me after each tournament seeking advice or criticism. fighting just above an unskilled fighters ability will lead to more frustration (im being toyed with ) and less inspiration (wow that guy is freaking good! ). it is the latter, in my opinion, which is the better tool.

my advise to you is to always bear in mind that your opponent is interested in a contest to see who, this day, is the better man. your opponant desire to best you or be bested by you. your opponent deserves your best display at all times. give them what they deserve and demand.

i hope it is obvious that this is based only on actual tournament (singles or grand melee) and not, in any way, in regard to fighter practice. at practice it is my personal goal to fight 10% above or below my student/teacher.

best regards
logan

Firstly... I have never ever EVER let anyone know or made it obvious that I was being easy on someone.

I guess I'm too soft-hearted... (or is that soft in the head?)... but I could never find it in myself to "smoke" a weaker opponent. I knew who they were and if they really stood a chance or not and modified my game to suit. Note, melee was always too busy... I'd tag folks where it was available.

This problem became especially evident in fencing. You get much gimpier players in that game. We had a couple playing who were in their 60's. How the heck can you abuse grandma and grandpa? How do you abuse the slender young cutie? Most times you know who can test you and who can't. I find it truly hard to just take out the weak ones.

I know it's on my honor to bring my best game to the list... but I really find no honor is smoking the weak. Maybe that's why I always preferred melee. In melee I never had that moral dilema.

[Titus Flavius]

just to describe one of my first sca fights.

was up against the now Sir Giles of Redheugh. Was a tournament of the roses actually. We agreed to 3 counted blows struck by one side. Now he could have taken me out like, wham wham wham. But he took it slowly. He let me pause (was in bad shape - no exercise) and attack him, while he gave me his best defense, and his best offense at the same time. He just didn't make an all out demolition.
He won hands down on superior skill, but he gave me time to see that skill, so i might learn from it at the same time. And in that fight, i did not feel he took down his level, or toyed with me.

So yes it's still possible to fight a new fighter without creaming him, and still giving him your best.

[dukelogan]

i would opine that what he did in actuality was give you his best defense the entire time and then reserved his best offense to the times he actually hit hit. or am i misunderstanding your narrative and he actually was throwing his best shots at you the whole time trying to defeat you in as timely a manner as he could?

regards
logan

just to describe one of my first sca fights.

was up against the now Sir Giles of Redheugh. Was a tournament of the roses actually. We agreed to 3 counted blows struck by one side. Now he could have taken me out like, wham wham wham. But he took it slowly. He let me pause (was in bad shape - no exercise) and attack him, while he gave me his best defense, and his best offense at the same time. He just didn't make an all out demolition.
He won hands down on superior skill, but he gave me time to see that skill, so i might learn from it at the same time. And in that fight, i did not feel he took down his level, or toyed with me.

So yes it's still possible to fight a new fighter without creaming him, and still giving him your best.

[Mord]

If you can crush somebody with ease- I mean utterly smoke them, you have now become obligated to teach them. Something. Anything.
-V

Agreed, completely. Unless there is someone better there to teach your opponette.

Mord.

[Titus Flavius]

he constantly threw his best shots, but took it slowly. meaning we would engage, exchange our best blows, withdraw, let me breathe, engage again, exchange blow again.. so on...

so yes, i would say he gave me his best in both...

[Brian de Lorne]

My view is this....

In a tourney, I expect the best man on the field to win that tourney. It is a contest, a competition. I expect that if there is someone skilled enough to smoke me, that he will, because on that day, he is my better (which is often at this point in my sca life). But every time I get smoked, I use that as motivation, so that the next time I fight that same fighter in tourney, he may smoke me again, but it won't be as easy as last time!

If you have an issue with smoking someone on the tourney field, try this. I've done it the two or three times I've tore someone up, and it does make you feel better after. Smoke them if you can, win the fight. Then after the fight, approach them and ask them if they want to know how it is you beat them. If it were me, I'd say hell yeah every time. It means something to me that a fighter of that level would have the graciousness to do that, "helping out the little guy" if you will, and I will have a lot of respect for that person.

You can't do it all the time I know, but it eases your mind, as well as teaches your opponent something about their fighting. Win win situation.

[Curt B.]

The first post was about "crushing the weak."

What is weak?

A new fighter? An unskilled fighter? A mediocre fighter with minimal armour? A feeble fighter?

Guess, if you choose, you have to take it on a case by case basis.

In reality, the only time a fellow fighter should take it easy is maybe with a brand-new unauthorized fighter (and let him know you are going slow), or a fighter that has specifically requested that you take it easy on him (maybe because they are in recovery of injury, etc.)

Otherwise, if they don't have leg armour, or whatever (etc., etc), that's their problem. They could solve that by getting more armour (for example) before they play again.

On another note, what about those really old Duke guys that smile and say "take it easy on me." Something fishy there...

[Odo]

Two situations, practice and tournament (because in melee if you are not giving your all you are letting your unit down!)

Tournament:
If you do not give your opponent your best fight then your are NOT showing him honor. Without the true test of your skill against his, how can a person judge themselves. I have been guilty of doing this in the past and several years ago figured out that the most honorable thing I could do was to fight my best at all times and let the cards fall where they may.

If you do not give your best, AND your opponent wins, how can they be happy with the outcome?

Practice:
It is the polite thing to do to let your opponent know that you are practicing. Offer to help them improve their game and by doing so they understand that you are not fighting your hardest or best, but are allowing them to gain experience. Tell them that you want to practice a shot or two to alleviate their doubts and work through those shots with them.

When I practice with someone new (or of lesser skill), I have a pattern that I generally follow. I fight hard for three fights to show them what the "A" game is all about. Then I ask if they want to work on something in particular. Then we fight. At the end I state that the last 3 (or five) are "Crown List Finals".


One other thing that I want to point out. I am generally a lazy fighter. I don't like to expend alot of energy. This lets me fight all day. There are times when it appears that I am not fighting my hardest but that is not usually the case. I am just conserving energy and my opponents do sometimes take this as not fighting hard.

Odo

[Robert Downey]

I like your practice "pattern" good Odo. I have struggled with this. My role in our barony is very much a teaching role, but I find that one "does what they practice". I have found myself in the "teaching" mindset inadvertantly at tourney. BAAAAAD idea. (laugh) Trying to balance that is proving to be more difficult than I thought, it helps that I go to other practice during the week, but I still get that unconscious "signal mixing" at tourney. I think I'll steal your idea. (wink)

Yours
Rob

[corbin skarlocke]

I dont do SCA but I have done a bit of sport fencing. During practise winning a match is just a stroke to your ego. I always try to fence a better fencer so I can learn. Learning something is far more valuable than feeding your ego.

Do your opponent the service of allowing them to learn.

[Adriano]

It's good to talk about this stuff. SCA fighting is as much a psychological game as a physical one, and I'm glad that our philosophy is more complex than just "win at any cost".

For years I had a hang-up (to use a term from my youth) similar to Otto's. Partly it was that, deep down, part of me felt like I didn't "deserve to win". Also, my instincts towards somebody who seems small and weak, or less capable, are protective rather than aggressive. Three things helped:

1) Experience. After fighting a number of years, I couldn't help noticing that, the way we play our game, size and brute strength are not the most important factors. I've beaten much larger men, and been beaten by little women. Also, a newby needs to face a real fight in order to learn. When a slender, pixyish girl named Kytte started learning to fight in South Downs, I found myself going a little easy on her because it was like hitting my little sister. But she trained really hard and started beating my butt; now she's Sir Kytte, Meridies' first female knight. I didn't do her any favors by going easy on her; a newby won't learn if all her opponents do that.

2) Empathy. Same reason I stopped giving up an arm every time I took one; I put myself in my opponent's shoes, and realized how that would make me feel. So I try to give every opponent the respect I'd want to receive.

3) Age. I'm 45, and recovering from leg surgery; a little while ago it suddenly clicked in my head that I'd done enough losing and it would be nice to start winning. Little change of attitude. I don't hit any harder, I haven't gotten meaner -- I just won't give up on a fight until it's done, and I think I've lost that little twinge of guilt I used to feel with a victory.

Incidentally, I never had that problem in a melee. One-on-one, I tend to empathize with my opponent, perhaps too much. But when I'm suddenly facing two or three guys in a melee, something in my brain says "Game on".

[Euric Germanicus]

How do you abuse the slender young cutie?

My girl is beautiful, slender and 22. She fights heavy and is a great fencer. I can assure you, she will be the one doing the abusing

I know what you mean, but she loves to play the "oh I'm just a cute girl" card then WHAM, your dead and she wont let you live it down for weeks.

Be careful with the weak looking ones, they are eeeevil!

[LeeC]

One of my first fights was against a beautiful petite redhead.

We faced off, lay on was called, she batted her big greens eyes at me.

I said to myself "I can't hi...WHAM!WHAM!WHAM!WHAM!

And I fell to the ground.

It never got any easier for me, but at least I knew what was coming after that.

[Richard GateCrasher]

I only reduce my attack when at practice with new person.
I feel that with a new fighter I could take them apart if I wished.

On the field I try to get in play mode and out of 'practice' mode.

being in a chair, the one problem I see is that my oponent sometimes will say "this isnt fair" and attempt to take a knee. DOnt.. dont do that.. please.. I came to play, i came to fight. If I wanted to fight someone else in a chair i would seek them out.

Looking forward to being at Gulf Wars again this year. I will see you in the ravine.. I will see you on the bridge, the town, the fort and the field.

Bring it on.. I will.

[Alric]

There are a few things I do when I am fighting guys who are of less skill, or

new. The first thing I do is tell them that every time they hit me, it's becuase

THEY are doing something right, NOT because *I* messed up and they "got one

through." Nothing pisses me off more than when a fighter who is lazy, or not

nearly as good as they think they are cannot face the fact that they got hit.

Every time I hit someone it's because I mean to, and new fighters need to know

that when they hit someone, it's becauser THEY did the right thing. There are also differences to how I fight certain people. If Joe or

Jane Newbie is at practice and wants to learn, or more specifically wants to

learn from me, they are going to get much more graduated fights. There are of

course those people who come after you every time like their life depends on

every fight. They never want advice, they never want to talk about fighting (unless it's a story about how great they were in the battle of.....), They have been usually fighting for 5-10 years and are not very good at it. For those types, I practice embracing a few theories some friends of mine use. Embrace your inner prick, and hold your enemy in utter contempt. By embracing my inner prick, I fight these people to excuse. You know fight them until they say something like "Wow, I've been sick all week, I think I'm done." Or "Man I didn't get any sleep last night." Or my personal favorite, "I'm done for the day, sheesh, it's been 3 months since I put armor on." I don't give them an inch, I bring the fight to them. Winning is imposing your will over someone else to get victory, you can be courteous and honorable when you do this, but you can't be sweet.
Then there are the people who I just love to fight. They get a completely different fight, because fighting is fun to them. I think most Scadians fit this category, just swinging sticks with no expectations. I don't go to practice to see who the best is. My local practice is not about beating each other, it's about getting better to go beat other people. When you trust the people at your practice that works. This is an ideal we try to empart to newer fighters.
Yeah I rambled.. bah, I'm at work, typing a sentance at a time.
Alric

[Ian]

I have this same problem, though it's not as bad as it used to be. A couple of years ago, I couldn't bring myself to smack anyone I saw as a weaker fighter really hard. Then I took a break and completely lost my edge, and started seeing things from their perspective again. I know that I start fuming whenever people tell me they've been going easy on me, or that they're pulling shots and not hitting certain spots because I'm not wearing armour there. Right now we've got a guy at practice who keeps asking me if he's hurt me after every leg shot (I'm fighting absolute minimum armour right now and trying to learn how to use a 24" round). It annoys me to no end when that happens, or when someone gives up an arm when I've lost mine.

It was an even worse problem when I started fighting light, because I found I was a good deal faster and more coordinated than some of the people in my shire who'd been fighting much longer than I had. At first it was exhilarating to beat them, then it kind of got... embarrassing. Then our light marshal had me start training the newbie fencers we get, so I'm the first person they stand off against when they've been shown the basic shots. My job is to show them some winnable fights, and then tear them apart without remorse for the next hour to show them what they can aspire to if they keep fighting for just a few months. This helped a LOT with my reservations as far as nailing newbies go.

[Otto]

I hear and respect what all of you are saying. I just don't think I can really do anything with it.

Perhaps it's because when I'm on the field (which I will note, has been awhile) I'm out there for grins. I am not concerned about winning or losing. I'm really not concerned about who the better man is. I'm just out playing with friends... and as such... I'd never abuse a friend in any contest (well, maybe some of them... but that's another matter).

I'd have to say, I have the wrong mindset to be able to make use of your good advice.

If it's any consolation, even when I do play... I'm at most a minor player on the list or field... as such, my idiosyncracies should not damage the workings of the SCA too heavily.

[Adriano]

Otto -- I don't know what to say to that, except that you're not abusing your opponent by winning a bout, as long as you fight honestly and don't hit with excessive force. It took me a long time to figure that out. Losing a lot is part of the learning process for all newbies. For me it's been a major part of my diet for almost a quarter of a century, and I've never resented a fighter for beating me. (Unless he just had an obnoxious attitude, which obviously is not the case with you.)

And when it comes to fighting guys at your skill level or higher -- bring them your best game, fight hard, and it'll be more fun for everybody, win or lose.

[Otto]

I have no problem at all bringing my best game when in melee or when in the list with someone I perceive as at my level or higher. It makes no sense at all, I know... but even in high school sports many long years ago, I'd play up to... or DOWN to, my opponents level. Don't know why... just always did.

I have no problem giving it my best 90% of the time. It's just that when facing certain individuals... I can't bring myself to swat them aside as if they have no place on the field with me. Even if I win, I like to at least let them make an effort... let them play. I just can't bring myself to walk out, one-shot them, and walk off... it feels very discourteous.

And before anyone suggests it... I have never gradually picked someone apart in the name of "letting them play". I'd never toy with an opponent.

[Livia Tasia]

From the other side - as a new person....

When I approach a fighter I tell them a few things. 1)I have no thrusting tip; 2)I'm new and have certain things I'm supposed to work on (range, etc.) and 3)I am learning to fight from knees since I am wearing a knee brace.

After that, I hope they would fight at whatever level they feel comfortable at fighting me at. I have made my armor to the best of my ability and am confident in it. The guys give me good fights and excellent instruction.

Until seeing this thread, it hadn't occurred to me that could be a problem for a skilled fighter! But I can see where there could be concern. If it's a new person, I'd say to give them a good, educational fight and if you need to bring the caliber down then there isn't anything wrong with that.

I've had a couple of fights were I felt I was being a little coddled but I never said a word because I still got excellent instruction. And when someone is taking the time to help me, I'm accepting it at whatever level is offered. There is always always always something to learn in every fight.

For me, the last thing I'm really thinking about is getting clobbered. I'm tring to remember to keep my shield in close and keep my elbow from sticking out. After that, I'm trying to give my best game and kill them.

Doesn't always work, but it's sure fun trying....

Tasia

[william]

Hi,
From my point of vie, there'se something of interest here: So far, nobody mentioned the "adrenalin effect" - that you fight differently in a highly competitive situation.

For example, I could easily name four "hot sticks" in my region of whom I don't have the impression that they "go easy" on me (even though some of my weaknesses may be plain apparent and are not exploited fully by them). However, would those four be the semi-finalists in Crown Tournament it would be a *totally different* level of fighting among them. From what I understand these fights is what they would call their "best fights" - and at the same point it's not something that can easily be pulled every day. I'm pretty sure I can't trigger that level today (and my thighs are quite happy about that fact ).

So in summary, I don't get what could be called a "best fight" - but I get a "fair fight" where any outcome is truly deserved. And that's what counts.


Cheers,
William

[freiman the minstrel]

I have thought about this a lot. We have a fighter that lives in our area that is a much better fighter than I. I find that I have a little trouble getting him to "take the training wheels off" unless I surprise him. He really isn't thinking "freiman is a duffer, I don't have to fight hard" but he does get into a relaxed frame of mind if I let him. Push him a little bit, and the whole thing gets better. Push him a lot and things can get really, really cool.

I find the same thing happening when I fight newer fighters. It is very difficult to dredge up my A game when my C game will do the job. It's easier when my opponent gives me some help.

As for buddies, I have a phrase that fits.

Before the fight, that man is your buddy, or your brother, during the fight, he is your honorable opponent, but he ain't your buddy anymore.

f