great bacinet + gorget?

[SirSavage]

Hey i need to make a helmet and i really like how greatbacinets look

but do i have to make such a ridged neck defense attached to the helm

would it be historically unrealalistic to just wear a gorget and let the helm come to just below my chin?

if anyone knows of patterns of ANY great bacinets please tell.

Thanks!!

[chef de chambre]

Great bascinets have integral gorgets - they sit on your shoulders and buckle to your breastplate. You head moves inside the helm, a little, but the helm does not move on your shoulders.

[SirSavage]

Yea.

What im asking though is if there is any evidence for a helmet that looks like a great bacinet but does not have the integrated gorget.

I want to be able to turn my head. I dont want to have to turn my head inside a big iron box.

Im asking if this is historically unrealistic. Not neccesaraly if a helm like this did exist, but if you guys think it could have existed.

[Kilkenny]

Yea.

What im asking though is if there is any evidence for a helmet that looks like a great bacinet but does not have the integrated gorget.

I want to be able to turn my head. I dont want to have to turn my head inside a big iron box.

Im asking if this is historically unrealistic. Not neccesaraly if a helm like this did exist, but if you guys think it could have existed.

I think part of what you are running into here is a matter of the definition of the terms. To be a great bascinet it must be as Chef described it.

If that isn't what you are looking for, then perhaps you are not actually looking for a great bascinet.

It sounds like what you want is a bascinet (distinct from a "great bascinet") with a gorget. I've had a couple of bascinet and gorget combinations that very nearly interlocked but were distinctly two separate pieces. It's a perfectly reasonable combination.

Gavin

[Kel Rekuta]

Yea.

What im asking though is if there is any evidence for a helmet that looks like a great bacinet but does not have the integrated gorget.

I want to be able to turn my head. I dont want to have to turn my head inside a big iron box.

Im asking if this is historically unrealistic. Not neccesaraly if a helm like this did exist, but if you guys think it could have existed.

I think part of what you are running into here is a matter of the definition of the terms. To be a great bascinet it must be as Chef described it.

If that isn't what you are looking for, then perhaps you are not actually looking for a great bascinet.

It sounds like what you want is a bascinet (distinct from a "great bascinet") with a gorget. I've had a couple of bascinet and gorget combinations that very nearly interlocked but were distinctly two separate pieces. It's a perfectly reasonable combination.

Gavin

For example the Hastings effigy c1347?

Or would that be a reinforce added to the aventail? Thoughts?

Kel

[SirSavage]

right

it wont be a great bacinet then, but i still want it to have the sleek frogfaced look.

can anyone reference a helm like i'm describing.

if its not realistic i'll make a sallet & bevor.

Thanks in advance.

[chef de chambre]

right

it wont be a great bacinet then, but i still want it to have the sleek frogfaced look.

can anyone reference a helm like i'm describing.

if its not realistic i'll make a sallet & bevor.

Thanks in advance.

You really should try to post a link to an image of exactly what you are looking for. I say this because you seem to have a definite idea of the "look", but you don;t seem to know at all what sort of helmet it is, to the point of thinking it might be four different helmet types (not including the sallet and bevor).

Surely, you could go to the Biliotheque National Website, look up the "Age of Charles V" exhibit, and poke though the froissart images, and then post a link to the type of helmet you are looking for.

[SirSavage]

http://www.historicenterprises.com/cart ... p=352&c=46

I want a helm that looks just like this one without the neck.

The helm im imagining would cut off just below my chin and i would wear a seperate gorget that the helm would overlap.

Is this type of helm i describe realistic?

[chef de chambre]

The short answer is no. What you want does not exist.

It sounds like what would historically be closest to what you want would be an armet with a visere sarna, instead of a ventaglia. (that would be a full visor with an occularum cut) The things weren't apparently made post 1440, as most images are from this date or before.

You must understand what makws an armet work is that it fits the head closely, and the jugulars overlap - there is a pin in one, and a hole in the other, and the jugulars pop together, and are joined.

If you want to butcher the jousting bascinet, you will have an a-historical fantasy helmet.

[Destichado]

I was under the impression that some great bascinets could rotate inside their collars. Is that never the case?

[RandallMoffett]

They have some bascients in the RA that are later that do not sit on the shoulders per say but it does go down quite low almost like a barbute with an open face. It currently does not have a visor or gorget but there are holes where it would have had them. It is dated late 14th. It basically fits what you are looking for perhaps. As far as the picture you posted, I am not familiar with it historically so Chef's likely right on it. Hope that helped,
RPM

[SirSavage]

Hey cool tip Randall

I did a google seach on the exhibet and came up with squat on the helm you referenced.

If anyone could please link a photo to this helm I REALLY WANT TO SEE IT!!!

If I cant find the type of helmet i described then i might make a radical jump to a sallet helm.

[RandallMoffett]

PM me and I can send a picture I took a few weeks ago of it,
RPM

[Konstantin the Red]

If you want a helmet that will permit you to turn your head, the great bascinet isn't it. There are a very few GB's being fielded in the SCA, generally being adopted by people with dodgy neck vertebrae, as this helmet is superb at protecting these. For a generation or so, these helmets were used in combat in the first half of the fifteenth century, but then they went to the tiltyard while the lighter and somewhat more mobile close helmets, sometimes barbutes, and various kinds of sallets went to the wars.

Even the very earliest great bascinets from circa 1400, which might be called retrofitted bascinets with a couple of extra plates wrapping around the neck and with a small degree of freedom of movement, pretty much eliminate head turning.

[D. Sebastian]

Me thinks you could get something like what you want if you go earlier with a visored sugarloaf.

http://www.armourarchive.org/patterns/s ... f2_sinric/

long link

[SirSavage]

Is it just me or does this seem like the helm im talking about.

Its almost impossible to see so maybe im just blind

...................


Never mind cant figur out how to get the pic. on here.

[per lillelund jensen]

Konstantin the Red Wrote:
For a generation or so, these helmets were used in combat in the first half of the fifteenth century, but then they went to the tiltyard while the lighter and somewhat more mobile close helmets, sometimes barbutes, and various kinds of sallets went to the wars.

If you look in the Schweizer bilderchroniken you will find many a burgundian knight or Man-at-arms wearing great basinets as late as the late 1470ties. The preserved italian armour in Bern is sporting a grand basinet, suposedly captured at Grandson in 1476.

Cheers
Per Lillelund