OOPS! can happen to anyone...

RalphS · Post by **RalphS** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 4:59 pm

from http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI10066c07b.jpg

Can you spot it?

I bet the armourer who made this mistake felt pretty stupid. It seems even the best can make a mistake every now and then.

Anton · Post by **Anton** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:07 pm

Maybe it was for the ambidextreous knight... want to go lefty, no problem just switch the lance rest and it's all good...

wilmot · Post by **wilmot** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:08 pm

I would say that the armourer put the holes for the lance rest on the wrong side.

Ronald

HammerHand · Post by **HammerHand** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:15 pm

I agree with Anton. Is there recorded history of detachable/ switchable lance rests? Maybe if the armour was sold after retirement/ death? The armour could have been handed down from father to son or grandfather to grandson; or so on. Is there a story behind this particular piece?

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:23 pm

Not quite so obvious is the extra hole on the fauld.

Brian Belding · Post by **Brian Belding** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 5:55 pm

yeah, there seems to be some extra holes in the fauld as well as the left arm area

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 6:41 pm

I'm guessing the holes were not mistakes or they would have been filled in, judging by the rest of the breatsplate, it looks pretty finished. Possibly for the attachment of a re-enforce? maybe a large latticework shield>

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:24 pm

This is the only know survival of a cuirass designed for a short lived German style of stunt jousting consisting of a course run with twin lances against two opponents simultaneously.
The matching rest for the left side is in a private collection.

Mike England · Post by **Mike England** » Sat Mar 04, 2006 8:06 pm

The lance rest is attached with rectangular staples so I would assume the round holes on the left side were for an exchange plate.
There appears to be an extra hole for a strap for the now missing fauld. I would think that hole was not added by the original armorer but instead from a repair during the working lifetime of the armour.
I don't think the slot on the armpit extension is usually visible and since I can see the one on the left but not the right I would guess that that could be an error. But that could be the result a poor restoration or just the way the photo was taken.

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:07 am

Cet wrote:This is the only know survival of a cuirass designed for a short lived German style of stunt jousting consisting of a course run with twin lances against two opponents simultaneously.
The matching rest for the left side is in a private collection.

I was thinking something along those lines but as a joke. I too assumed they were just for some kind of reinforcing piece. Are you seriously saying they really tried to joust with two lances?

Richard

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:25 am

Was there a specific name for this type of joust? Or was it more of a "Lets try this once, and see if we need a new name for it"?

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:30 am

It's one of the least known joust variations practiced in Germany in the late 16th century. The jousts using the spring loaded "exploding breastplates" were similar in nature; designed to increase spectacle and excitement as the skills involved became less relavant to actuall combat.

Typically this course of double lances would be followed by the rider attempting to jump an obstacle such as a row of burning carts, pit full of captive beasts, or spike filled moat sometimes with the aid of springy ramps or primitive rockets.

Britehelm · Post by **Britehelm** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 8:41 am

This may not be a mistake, but I have seen extant pieces with mispunched holes for articulation. Some had been filled in and some had not. If it was salvagable, I am sure they tried.
Lex

Hew · Post by **Hew** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 9:45 am

I was wondering if they ever used some sort of shield that strapped onto the breastplate rather than the arm, sort of an over-sized pauldron.
Like this? - http://www.jousting.co.nz/Jousting-000035.jpg

Also check out this guy, (with the owie on his breastplate) - http://www.jousting.co.nz/P1000122.jpg
The holes on the left look like they're positioned close to the same places as the holes in the 1548 example.

Both images are from http://www.jousting.co.nz/2005_tournament.htm

As far as the left/right conversion theory goes, would they be likely ever to hold the lance left-handed? Unless you had two lefties each willing to ride against each other using the left lanes, I would think that there would be an overwhelming pressure to preserve the symmetry, so as to be able to more easily cover the left side with a shield against a right-handed opponent. Compare that to covering the offside (right side) arm with a shield on the right arm.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 7:34 pm

Cet wrote:This is the only know survival of a cuirass designed for a short lived German style of stunt jousting consisting of a course run with twin lances against two opponents simultaneously.
The matching rest for the left side is in a private collection.

I will be following up with you on this, as I consider it obvious justification for the use of two swords.

As to the "oops" on this armor - I note that the etching on the arm "gusset" above the lance rest appears to have a stripe across it near the top that does not look like part of the intended design. The two gussets also don't appear to match, etching-wise, but that could be a matter of the photo tricking me.

gavin

Sir Gaufred Kelson · Post by **Sir Gaufred Kelson** » Sun Mar 05, 2006 11:01 pm

Cet,

It's really odd, but I've been running some independent research concerning what you have mentioned. It's called the "Zwei Renner" which means 'two joust'. I've been finding that it's not as obscure if you know how to read Alt Deutch, or even Hoc Deutche.

It's rather amazing and it's really cool to think that the medievel knight, as they fell out of war practice, started to engage in a more 'entertainment' oreinted career. I guess this would actually be the first 'stunt' men of the early days or even Medieval Kneival. This also lends some really weird justification to the movie 'A Knights Tale' where they actually portrayed the Knight as a modern day NASCAR/FOOTBALL/PRO Wrester franchise.

Send me some of your documentation so that I can bounce it off mine.

Kelson

OOPS! can happen to anyone...

OOPS! can happen to anyone...

can you spot it?