Should i be flattered or really pi**ed off!!

MattB · Post by **MattB** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:24 am

Having been making steel and polyurethane armour for Nortonarmouries.com for several years, i had a nasty surprise to find some of our oldest designs being replicated.

On other sites!
http://www.museumreplicas.com/WebStore/ ... 00386l.jpg

http://www.mwart.com/xq/ASP.productlg/p ... helmet.htm

And below our helmets that we have been producing since we started our website years ago! Makes me want to cry!

freiman the minstrel · Mon Mar 27, 2006 6:42 am

Well,

We argue all the time about whether or not you can copyright a reproduction of a medieval design, and the answer we come to here is generally "No".

The patterns on the "embossed helmet" however, might be a different story. If you designed that pattern (rather than reproducing a medieval design) then this might be actionable.

Museum Replicas is a fairly large US company with deep pockets. You might have a case. Maybe.

See a lawyer. Pay the damn consulting fee.

Yes, be flattered. Also, be smart.

freiman

MattB · Post by **MattB** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:33 am

Fortunately niether design is historical they didn't even change anything! The plume holder is different but then our design is now a tankard shaped anglo saxon detailed holder. Details like nasals etc are original as well.

Ah well. Damn you windlass.

armoradict · Post by **armoradict** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:01 am

And you more than likely will get "but we just order them from windlass steelecrafts in India" As I bet it's those Indian F$^*ers that stole the design.

MattB · Post by **MattB** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:05 am

Yes it is windlass. We have contacted them.

Whats worse is our american agent is selling the copies!

wilmot · Post by **wilmot** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:39 am

MattB,
You have every right to be upset, I had the same thing done to some designs that I had done for Icefalcon that Triplette (sp.) bought from Icefalcon, sent overseas, and had cheap copies made. Even though you can not copyright armour designs, this shows no sense of honor. If you are going to sell imported armour, then come up with your own designs, license someone elses or you are a honorless asshat.

Ronald

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:26 am

wilmot wrote:MattB,
You have every right to be upset, I had the same thing done to some designs that I had done for Icefalcon that Triplette (sp.) bought from Icefalcon, sent overseas, and had cheap copies made. Even though you can not copyright armour designs, this shows no sense of honor. If you are going to sell imported armour, then come up with your own designs, license someone elses or you are a honorless asshat.

Ronald

While, you can not copyright the armor, you could possibly copyright the pattern you used to make the armor and you could also possibly do the same for the art work. Sad to say, that if you haven't done this, you are probably out of luck.

Btw, nice work. What material are you making the nasals out of?

Mord.

KerryStagmer · Post by **KerryStagmer** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:30 am

Freiman posted.....

"Museum Replicas is a fairly large US company with deep pockets. You might have a case. Maybe"

close but no cigar my man.....

MRL is owned by Windlass.... Now you know how both DelTin AND Arms and Armour feel....

I have the same issue with anything nice I send to the NY ren fair... the next season it is available as cheap junk from crap makers in china. Its the only location I notice where they are directly grabbing my designs.

MattB · Post by **MattB** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:49 am

Btw, nice work. What material are you making the nasals out of?

Thanks mord, the pictured helmets are the polyurethane copies, the orinal nasals were embossed aluminium on the simple one, and carved in wax for the elaborate design.

Matt

Sir Gaufred Kelson · Post by **Sir Gaufred Kelson** » Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:33 pm

See if you can seek a 'design' patent. These can be relatively cheap, if you get the right patent lawyer. Check into International design patents at the same time. If you have one of these then seller can't take the copy and sell them.

It's worth looking into. This is what the product design world uses to stop coping and fakes of recent designs. Also, if you seek out a patent on how the armour was constructed, ie materials, process, and manufacturablitity and someone does the same thing you can get a cease and desist then reparation. Remember though, patents all have time limits, as do copyrights, that's how generic drugs get made, same formulation but after the developemental company has recouped it's investment and made a profit. Good luck,

Kelson

Hew · Post by **Hew** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:20 pm

They are so totally NOT the same. Yours have truss-head rivets on the cheek plate hinges, MRL used flat-head rivets. (heh - just kidding)

I think a "patent" is for a new invention, machine, whatever, so I'd say "copyright" is more the issue, and for graphic designs and such you do not have to register it. You might only have to prove "prior art".

I visited http://www.nortonarmouries.com/ to check it out, wondering if they had made the claim that it was an historically authentic design, in which case you'd be hosed. But no, it's described as a "Celtic Fantasy Spangenhelm - Celtic design spangenhelm with cheeks and nasal", which strongly implies originality.

Even if yours was a hand-made replica of an actual period helm, if you could prove that their decorative elements were from a mold of yours, I think you'd have a case. It would be like the copyright to a photograph of a famous painting belonging to the photographer (or his client).

MattB · Post by **MattB** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 4:08 am

Well we traced the manufacture of the copies of our pieces to windlass so we've been in touch. For all we know they may not realise they've infringed copyright, someone may have supplied them with the helms and just asked them to replicate them.

The thing with rivets is wierd our polyurethane helmets have most of the rivet moulded in we just use flat headed rivets put in with a machine to attach the cheeks for ease, yet for some reason the copies showed such a lack of imagination that they even copied this detail rather than use domed/piened head rivets!

windlass site says "Our armor is faithfully copied from museums and private collections" that made me laugh a bit.

Me and my friend who designed the helmets a really kind of amused by it all, while Dave who runs Norton has been quietly fuming.

Laurie Wise · Post by **Laurie Wise** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 6:48 am

Sort of a "backdoor" compliment or should that be a "backhanded"?

By the way, nice work!

MattB · Post by **MattB** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:21 am

Thanks Laurie, it's not just me but David Roper as well, Dave is a genius with anglo-saxon work he showed me how easy it was to make the bronze channel for edging helmets, he makes a lovely sutton hoo replicas too, from buckles to the helmet, & currently the shield.

Laurie Wise · Post by **Laurie Wise** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:39 am

Then my compliments to Dave Roper as well for such fine work.

Do either of you have a website?
---------------

Scratch that last remark....just reread your first post here. "Smacks head" Dont I feel dumb!

Been up too long. G'night all!

MattB · Post by **MattB** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 8:07 am

Not so dumb Laurie, Dave use to have his own site, i'll check with him to see if he minds me posting pics of his sutton hoo helmet & boss.

Hopefuly have my own site for steel armour soon.

Norton Armouries is the company i work for most of the time, i just fit in private commissions in between jobs.

Some of my work is in the following threads, i'm still learning really.

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... ht=#733574

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... ht=#664535

MattB · Post by **MattB** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:08 am

Further to a telephone call thisafternoon, the copyright issue is now satisfactorally rectified with windlass, who have acted promptly, politely, and honourably.

Thanks for those with supportive feedback (think that was everyone who posted in fact), much appreciated.

Regards

Matt

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 1:25 pm

Glad to hear you got that sticky bit resolved.
It pains me to see this sort of thing happen in our small community.

One of my encounters... my pattern on the archive pattern section was reproduced by a commercial armourer and sold as their new apprentice developed pattern. The pattern page clearly states; These Patterns are free to all with the understanding that credit should be given to the owners. It took a little complaining but the armourer posted my ownership.
I really do not mind anyone using it... that is why it is on the pattern page. To call it their own is what got my dander up.

One more while I am at it.... I worked hard and had a considerable cash outlay in materials and manufacturing to develop a nice sword kit, cut from spring steel. I had a growing client interest on my thread when a commercial sword maker offers his unfinished swords as kits, the same day I post mine are ready. I sadly watched as my possible clients migrated over to the new thread. I sold one kit. The whole experience was chalked up to "live and learn".

I have several more... but enough of my ranting.

Best of luck on your business ventures and welcome to the Archive.

Halberds

MattB · Post by **MattB** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 2:04 pm

Thanks Hal, i read about your patterns being sold a while ago, that's just plain cheeky, but at least they acknowledged you in the end (shame they didn't share the money with you though).

Matt

Andrew Young · Post by **Andrew Young** » Wed Mar 29, 2006 9:04 pm

We argue all the time about whether or not you can copyright a reproduction of a medieval design, and the answer we come to here is generally "No".

The patterns on the "embossed helmet" however, might be a different story. If you designed that pattern (rather than reproducing a medieval design) then this might be actionable.

Museum Replicas is a fairly large US company with deep pockets. You might have a case. Maybe.

See a lawyer. Pay the damn consulting fee.

Yes, be flattered. Also, be smart.

Museum Rep has a LOOONG history of this kind of crap.

They produce lies upon lies as to their projects.

Matt, you have an absolute right to YOUR work. Most people dont know enough about copyright law and protection under the law.

In my opinion, MRL has exploited both the armouring base that effectively gave birth to this craft but like most who import foreign goods, little care is given to the exploitation of children and adults who work for pennies on the dollar.

They are NOW owned by Windlass steel crafts....MRL are importers through and through....Ive argued hardcore with their chair of marketting who lost more ground through the bs he tried to spin and defend.

"We are not importers" (owned by Windlass steelcrafts)

"We forge all our work" (no anvil in sight)

"blah blah blah"

Laurie Wise · Post by **Laurie Wise** » Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:35 am

"Sigh" Good.

At least now, finally, I know who made that fantasy "viking" helmet after seeing it for the first time in a MRL catalog several months ago.

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 9:27 am

MattB wrote:Further to a telephone call thisafternoon, the copyright issue is now satisfactorally rectified with windlass, who have acted promptly, politely, and honourably.

Thanks for those with supportive feedback (think that was everyone who posted in fact), much appreciated.

Regards

Matt

I am glad this was resolved to your satisfaction. But what exactly are they going to do about it? Are they going to acknowledge these are based on your design, stop making them or at least not exact copies, pay you a design fee or royalty or did they just say they are sorry?

Since no one ever seems to say anything nice about Windlass, if there is something good to hear it would be a good change of pace. Not that I'm a fan of theirs, quite the opposite. But I'd like to be fair.

MattB · Post by **MattB** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:39 pm

Well i shall go against the grain and be nice about them!

They have offered to stop production of the items, they had assumed them to be straight forward historical pieces. Other than that i should say no more until all is sorted officialy.

In the mean time one of our dealers in America sent us some photos of copies of one of our other helmets by a chinese company, but we're not worried as they were so hideously done they're no competition.

While Windlass was a kind of backhanded compliment, the chinese examples were just an insult (i'll post pics of them on monday).

horsefriend · Post by **horsefriend** » Fri Mar 31, 2006 4:24 pm

I hope that you actually recieve satisfaction from Windlass.

The fact that they are talking is hopefull. I man I work with did work for "The New World" and now Noble House is selling exact copies of the compass made for "John Smith" ('course they arn't carved bone, but . . .) To date, he's gotten no reply from Noble House.

a/s

KerryStagmer · Post by **KerryStagmer** » Sat Apr 01, 2006 10:07 pm

Wow, I offer forumites a completely different product at considerably HIGHER COST, completely designed by myself (and my brother) and you compair that to someone ripping off a makers EXACT helm and selling it for less? I did not offer the same material, pommels or even blade styles.

As for being a 'commercial sword maker' I assume you mean this to be a negative thing when 2 brothers make swords together.... no other employees....

I guess when my very very expensive silversmithing stakes and chasing tools come to market they will infringe on 'newbie kits'

Halberds wrote:
One more while I am at it.... I worked hard and had a considerable cash outlay in materials and manufacturing to develop a nice sword kit, cut from spring steel. I had a growing client interest on my thread when a commercial sword maker offers his unfinished swords as kits, the same day I post mine are ready. I sadly watched as my possible clients migrated over to the new thread. I sold one kit. The whole experience was chalked up to "live and learn".

I have several more... but enough of my ranting.

Halberds

Halberds · Post by **Halberds** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 12:33 am

Hello Mr. Stagmer,

I compared it to the feeling... and I was ranting.
This is a free market, You can do as you please... including tool making.
I shall hereafter keep my feelings to myself. and not burden the forum.

Hal

Andrew Young · Post by **Andrew Young** » Sun Apr 02, 2006 1:26 am

you fellas got something you want to tell the class?

that came outta left field

Should i be flattered or really pi**ed off!!

Should i be flattered or really pi**ed off!!

MRL...