Inside rolls v. Outside rolls: when and why?

bexter12 · Post by **bexter12** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 10:01 am

I am starting to study different styles and time periods of plate and am noticing rolls. Some pieces have them to the outside and others to the inside.

At the Cleveland Museum, most of the later stuff has inside rolls and the back wall of earlier gothic stuff had mostly outward rolls. The exception is my favorite fan-shaped pauldrons which have an inward roll on the top shoulder lame and an outward roll on the bottom arm lame.

I can see pros and cons to each. Inward rolls seem like they would be harder to hammer, yet you can leave the edge less finished. You can also sand and polish this type of roll more completely after its finished.

Outward rolls seem like they would be easier to execute, but harder to finish as far as sanding and polishing goes.

Can anyone tell me more about the differences between the two? When and where were each type more likely to be found? What are the other advantages and disadvantages to each?

Thanks in advance for any information.

bex

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"Anything worth doing is worth doing obsessively."
Becky's Armour Pages: http://bexter.adkinssoftware.com

Armourkris · Post by **Armourkris** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 1:47 pm

while not really answering your question, i figured i'd add another pro to the outward roll.

an outward roll would help stop a glancing blade from going off the edge of a plate and hitting something that was possibly not plate.

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What, drawn, and talk of peace! I hate the word, As I hate hell, all Montagues, and thee:

Klangiron Skullthumpa · Sun Sep 01, 2002 6:06 pm

I'd noticed that to Bexter. It looks to me that after they roll it to the inside they score the outer side with a flute that leaves a sharp looking roll and maybe it moves the roll "outward" a bit. I need to get off my butt and go experiment some.

Tom Justus · Post by **Tom Justus** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 7:07 pm

The short answer:

1510 AD

Before 1510 AD the vast majority (almost to exclusion) of rolls are turned outward.

After 1510 AD rolls are turned inward.

The reason for this change is not known.

Some of us speculate the invention of the â€œjennyâ€

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 7:25 pm

Tom is right - it is almost always a date thing. There are some minor exceptions (like the inner roll on a gauntlet or vambrace) that are often rolled out even late - but basically later armour must be done 'in' and early stuff must be done 'out'. Pick a period, and learn how to do the right kind of rolls (or learn both and use the right type for the right period).

When you come to see armour - you will see almost exclusively 'inward' rolls - because I can (almost) only afford the later armour.

There are pros and cons to making each of the types of rolls. The main pros of the 'in' rolls is that you don't have to clean up the edge and you can do them with a jenny. The main pros of the 'out' rolls are that they are easier to make by hand - normally they take fewer steps.

As usual my advice is to do whatever is correct for the armour you are trying to make.

Wade

jamesn_13 · Post by **jamesn_13** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 9:28 pm

Speaking of rolls, what metal armour from the 13th century would have rolls on it and where?
Thanks.
James

CLANG · Post by **CLANG** » Sun Sep 01, 2002 11:11 pm

On a related note, I have thus far only executed outward rolls. It seems to me that the (cosmetic) finishing of INward rolls would be a royal PITA, due to the difficulty of getting a long "brushed" finish in one direction with such physical barriers at the borders of a piece.

With careful hammer work, you can do an outside roll after the majority of finish work is done, but not so with the inside version. Any thoughts, or ways that you guys (gals too) tackle the problem?

(I'm mostly referring to pieces that are bordered on several sides by the roll, such as poleyn wings or non-laminated pauldron wings.)

Noe · Post by **Noe** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 12:02 am

Ok, I'm ignorant: What's a jenny?

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The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.

bexter12 · Post by **bexter12** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 1:22 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Noe:
Ok, I'm ignorant: What's a jenny?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've never seen one in person, but Tom has a picture of one on his site:
http://justus.pair.com/ShopPhotos/slides/Jenny.html

bex

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"Anything worth doing is worth doing obsessively."
Becky's Armour Pages: http://bexter.adkinssoftware.com

CLANG · Post by **CLANG** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 3:10 am

That brings me to another question: someone mentioned a while back that there is a mediaval "jenny" pictured in the famous woodcut of Maximilian and Seusenhoffer. I have yet to find it. Any further info? I have scoured the print, and I'm just not seeing it.

wcallen · Post by **wcallen** » Tue Sep 03, 2002 11:01 am

Back to Clang's comment - I have done both inside and outside rolls after most of the work was finished. Best I can tell when you do the grinding work is more a matter of taste than necessity. The direction of the roll never forced me to change how I did the cleanup - just how I did the roll....

Wade