Anyone ever make "jack Chains"

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:18 am

I've seen em in a few period depictions of common infantry.

I think they'd just be kick ass worn with a jack as "garb"
Only ones i found are here

http://www.matuls.pl/english/index.html

luckly they have a period pic too.

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:29 am

These guys have cool stuff.

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

Destichado · Post by **Destichado** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 1:33 am

I was ...still am... thinking about pairing jack chains with a soupcan elbow or floating coutier

Wolf · Post by **Wolf** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 6:20 am

i'd love a pair too, only i dont have arms on my jack

Kel Rekuta · Post by **Kel Rekuta** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:59 am

Yeah, I made these for freeplay with aluminum wasters. (18ga. SS)
I imagine they'd be useful in any controlled fencing environment. Not so much for baton combat as such things were intended to resist cuts and slashes, not blunt trauma. Worn over an aketon, they take the sting out of blows.

Mid 14thC German and Italian knightly effigies show similar defenses worn over mail sleeves.

Ivo · Post by **Ivo** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 11:12 am

The Matuls Jack Chains are a rip-off of my design and construction.
Came out shortly after I posted mine on Arador and cost about half as much as I would ask for a pair.
Grrr.

My Design?
Exactly.
The only 15th centry source I had was the Memling painting, but I had but poor reproductions of it at hand, which didnÃ‚Â´t reveal enough detail.
So I modified a 16th century sketch by Urs Graf of the 1520s by "gothifying" it. The splints in that picture originally had rounded corners and a double flute down the center, theri appearance being more squat as one would exspect according to 16th century fashion.
I made the thing less "maximilianesque" by laying a single sharp center crease and making the overall shape a bit more crisp and sleek.

But compare for yourself.

Regards

Ivo

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:14 pm

Ivo:

I have looked at the period painting and seen Urs Graf Ill. of them. I am not saying that Matuls did not rip off your design. But, yours and theirs are very similar AND very similar to the construction method in the painting AND Urs Graf ill.

Is it not possible that you both came to the same conclusion separately?
Or is there more to this story than you are giving us?

Klaus the Red · Post by **Klaus the Red** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:15 pm

I seem to recall Tim Finkas showed up this past Pennsic in a set of these.

Klaus

earnest carruthers · Post by **earnest carruthers** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:47 pm

Interesting as the Memling ones have an extra articulation mid upper arm, see red lines on atatched pic, also extra plates between them, see green lines.

I don't think Ivo's or Matul's are that close a match, although I think Ivo's are lovely looking.

Ivo · Post by **Ivo** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:45 pm

Irish,

there may be more to the story, though I did not do any further research.
To start the story, youÃ‚Â´ve got to know that there is a group called Compagnie of Saynte George, who list names like John Howe and Gerry Embleton among the founding members. Most 15th century Renactment in Germany basically is Company of Saynte George Reenactment.
This very group organized an event on Pentecost for the past 3 or 4 years, and many groups participated, CoStG- clones and independently working groups and people alike.

There is a fellow who participated and who boasted his absolute striving for quality and accuracy and so on, and you know the typical phrases about "quality has its price", "I am too poor to buy rubbish", "your own fault if quality is lacking if you buy the cheap off- the- peg Czech stuff" and so on.

He ordered a pair of splints from me, the very ones you see in my photo.
"Just make Ã‚Â´em and name your price, you know what I exspect"
So utmost accuracy.
No shortcuts.
The rings are homemade from 5mm round stock, bent hot around a mandrel, sawed off, smoothed out, and closed. No curtain rings or stuff. You know how to dome the shoulders and elbows, I need not go into detail. I did not simply run a crease down the splints, I slightly domed the pieces to conform to the shape of the arms, and then made the creases. Planished it all out. Holes are hand punched. Edges are bevelled and filed by hand, not machine- trimmed. Laces are home-, and handmade, no cheap shoe laces. Lace chapes are homemade.
All in all I spent a fair amount of hours to make them, only for the final polish I used a scotchbrite flap wheel.

When finished I told him and named my price. 240 Euros. His only reply was "I wonÃ‚Â´t buy Ã‚Â´em from a Czech guy I can get a pair of full gothic arms for that price."

Besides that I know that he for a while had a small business of reenactment goods, the clothes of which came from Matuls. Shortly after him not buying what he ordered, I showed my work on Arador, and a little later Matuls has got them in his portfolio.

Makes one think, doesnÃ‚Â´t it.

So I thought, fuck that accuracy, and calculated a new price for taking all shortcuts modern machinery can offer, angle grinder, grinding and polishing discs, the lot. Ended up with 160 Euros. No competition, life here is a bit more pricey than in Poland.

The story ends with some irony, though.
Guess who bought them eventually?
A LARPer. :lol:

Klaus the Red · Post by **Klaus the Red** » Wed Apr 12, 2006 7:43 pm

Just looked at Matuls' site for the first time. Although, as a rule, I try not to criticize my competition in public, I must say his Charles de Blois pourpoint fits his model like a cheap tent. He seems to have altogether missed the point of the grand asiette design.

Klaus

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:34 am

Well all the people getting screwed aside....

anybody feel like making a set fer lil ole me???

Ivo · Post by **Ivo** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:48 pm

Sure. Need your measures, though, so send a PM.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:43 pm

Whats a ball park on your no frills version in USD??

Ivo · Post by **Ivo** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:36 am

Hi.

Ballpark figure according to what the currency converter sez: $193, 74

I have no idea of shipping charges from Europe to the US, but IÃ‚Â´d say $190, and if shipping is below $20, itÃ‚Â´s included. IÃ‚Â´d like two weekendsÃ‚Â´ time to make them, additional time is the mailserviceÃ‚Â´s fault.

Regards

Ivo

Ivo · Post by **Ivo** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:36 am

Hi.

Ballpark figure according to what the currency converter sez: $193, 74

I have no idea of shipping charges from Europe to the US, but IÃ‚Â´d say $190, and if shipping is below $20, itÃ‚Â´s included. IÃ‚Â´d like two weekendsÃ‚Â´ time to make them, additional time is the mailserviceÃ‚Â´s fault.

Regards

Ivo

Primvs Pavlvs · Post by **Primvs Pavlvs** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 9:33 am

Kel Rekuta wrote:Yeah, I made these for freeplay with aluminum wasters. (18ga. SS)

Mid 14thC German and Italian knightly effigies show similar defenses worn over mail sleeves.

Do you have any pics, or drawings of these? I would really be interested in seeing them for my impression.

thanks!

Ivo · Post by **Ivo** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:14 pm

This has been discussed before, and I nicked the sketch back then :lol:

Klaus the Red · Post by **Klaus the Red** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 12:42 pm

I would call those are early gutter-shaped arm defenses with rondels or shallow couters, not "jack chains."

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Fri Apr 14, 2006 1:38 pm

Hello Ivo,

Well, the world is a much smaller place, thanks to the internet.

Kels jack chains look just like the pair I made and posted on the internet...
right down to the use of interlocking rings instead of steel rods attached to the back of the plates.

But it's ok... I based our sets on a pair at Warrick Castle... which were modern made for a wax figure.

Kel may have seen the same pair in England or my post at Arador or come up with his own design based off of Memling painting.

There really is only so much you can do with plates of steel as jack chains.

Cheers,

DT

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 3:04 pm

Thats pretty much the look i'm headed for

Kettle hat coif and coat with the jack chains

Ivo pm sent

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Sat Apr 15, 2006 8:24 pm

Here is a better pic of one of our jack chains.

Looks almost like the same one Kel has.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Sun Apr 16, 2006 8:22 am

Yall know i'm one crappy armourer as armourers go

but i do think that even i could make that.

I'd rather buy it cause i know i won't actually get off my butt and do it. But i think i probably could.

Anyone have a pattern???

Kel Rekuta · Post by **Kel Rekuta** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 1:24 am

David Teague wrote:Hello Ivo,

Well, the world is a much smaller place, thanks to the internet.

Kels jack chains look just like the pair I made and posted on the internet...
right down to the use of interlocking rings instead of steel rods attached to the back of the plates.

But it's ok... I based our sets on a pair at Warrick Castle... which were modern made for a wax figure.

Kel may have seen the same pair in England or my post at Arador or come up with his own design based off of Memling painting.

There really is only so much you can do with plates of steel as jack chains.

Cheers,

DT

David,

I knew you made some but I've never seen the closeup you posted. FWIW, I really hate the mail link assembly. I don't think it will last under hard use. No money changed hands for these things as I don't think they'll work very well.

FYI, I spent hours staring at the Memling image until Brian handed me an image of some SCA guy's interpretation from a few years ago and said "Finish the damned things!" :roll:

I made my own patterns as you can tell by the huge rondels compared to your's.

Ivo's pattern is really quite elegant and looks sturdy. I might copy the solution of rolled tabs on the rings for my own chains but not for resale. Using mail links for assembly is the only economical way to make such a low value item.

A similar "spleynt" solution may be found on the effigy of Gottfried von Arnesburg in Koln. On the Bilde.de site image #MI01074f05a.jpg

David Teague · Post by **David Teague** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 2:04 am

Kel Rekuta wrote:David,

I knew you made some but I've never seen the closeup you posted. FWIW, I really hate the mail link assembly. I don't think it will last under hard use. No money changed hands for these things as I don't think they'll work very well.

-Snip-

Ivo's pattern is really quite elegant and looks sturdy. I might copy the solution of rolled tabs on the rings for my own chains but not for resale. Using mail links for assembly is the only economical way to make such a low value item.

Hello Kel,

As I said, there is only so many ways to make jack chains.

I agree about the links, a good strike and they blow apart. I think Ivo's (Hi Ivo!) tabs are the way to go for a real pair meant to be used hard. If I remember right, the Warrick jack chains had steel rods to reenforce the plates and they also were bent as the attachment tabs.

Cheers,

DT

Wolf · Post by **Wolf** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:05 am

what dia are you using for the rondels? how wide/long are teh straight pieces? tring to get some demension on how much they actually cover the arm, not just the fabric of the jack

earnest carruthers · Post by **earnest carruthers** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 10:35 am

The memling images shows a rolled edge to each end of the plates to take a thicker connecting ring.

Ivo · Post by **Ivo** » Mon Apr 17, 2006 3:44 pm

Hello.

Wolf wrote:what dia are you using for the rondels? how wide/long are teh straight pieces? tring to get some demension on how much they actually cover the arm, not just the fabric of the jack

The actually do cover the the fabric of the jack

The rondels are fairly small, they just about cover the respective joint. Diameter is about 10 to 12 cm, the shoulder one elongated to achive the teardrop shape. Attachment is just above the "hinge" of your shoulder and elbow joint.
The splints cove the space in between. Average width is about an inch or two.

This is for my skinny self, weighing about 72kg at 1.78m, so you might want to adjust the dimensions to your needs and measure.

Regards

Ivo

Anyone ever make "jack Chains"

Anyone ever make "jack Chains"

Jack chains

Re: Jack chains