Knights Hospitaller 1248-1259

[Wyrm]

Does anyone have any photos of Hospitaller knights of this time? (photos of kits or anything would be most appreciated). I've read conflicting argument about the white cross and black background also being used upon their shields. Can anyone confirm if it was/wasnt? Also the same for the pennon? The only thing I have found to support this is the following:


The Crusader Kingdom of Valencia

Robert Ignatius Burns, S.J.

"The Order of the Hospital of St. John of Jerusalem originated as a brotherhood of the late eleventh century caring for pilgrims in the Holy Land; it had taken on an ever stronger military coloring in the twelfth century. Armed escorts to protect pilgrims evolved in the Order under Raymond of Provence (1120-1160); the first mention of military service in its statutes comes as late as 1200. The Hospitaller rule was Augustinian; their badge was the white, eight-pointed cross, borne on black tunic, on shield, and on pennon."

[Wyrm]

oh and one other thing, can someone please tell me what the function of the small riveted piece of metal at each of the far edge of the helmet eye slot that often accompanies pictures of the Hospitaller kit is? Its usually shown with what looks like 5 to 6 rivets and is located around where a strap could possibly be connected.

Surely it must be more than purely decoration?

[Gregoire de Lyon]

I have several books and many photos from my trip to Malta, but not immediately at hand. I will try to look that information up tonight and post for you.

[Egfroth]

IIRC, the colours of the Hospitallers andthe form of the cross changed over the centuries. The eight-pointed cross on the Black background came in relatively late, being preceded by a straight white cross on red, I think.

[Wyrm]

IIRC, the colours of the Hospitallers andthe form of the cross changed over the centuries. The eight-pointed cross on the Black background came in relatively late, being preceded by a straight white cross on red, I think.

Yes, that sounds right by what I have read also. My interest in the 1248-1259 period is when the black background and white cross were in use. I'm not exactly sure of the style of the cross design, as there seems to be 3 different versions that were used at various times.

From Terence Wise:

"from the start all members of the (Hospitaller) Order wore a black mantle. Between 1120 and 1160 it was laid down that a white cross should be worn on the breast of this mantle. No example of this cross survives from the 12th century, but in 1224 the master's seal shows a plain Latin cross. The cumbersome mantle was replaced in 1248 by a black surcoat with a cross on the breasts, but in 1259, as a result of a petition by the Order, permission was granted for all military members to wear a white cross on red (opposite to Templar) ... The Order's cross had now taken the shape of a cross formée or pattée.."

[Gregoire de Lyon]

Honestly, I think the easiest resource you will find is the Osprey book dedicated to the Hospitallers - Knight Hospitaller (1) 1100 - 1306. It details everything in brief - typical of Osprey. According to this book the uniform was black with the 8 pointed white cross during this time period. The illustrations indicate that it was also on the shield, though the illustrations are notoriously inaccurate.

I am not able to find any better refereces at the moment, though I know that I have some around here somewhere.

I would recommend a trip to the library - there are a growing number of quality books on the Knights of St. John

[Wyrm]

Unfortunatly that is one Osprey book I just dont have. I dont suppose you can tell me the answer to my above question regarding the hospitaller helmet above? I would really like to see the original piece of art that so many people have redrawn from that shows this helmet.

So far I am tending towards the metal additions to strengthen the visor of the helm due to the fact that is does not take any strength from a central nasal bridge. That is the occular slot is open from one side to another, so I thought the pieces of metal at either end which seem riveted on could be a support to keep the helm face from being beaten out of shape easily.

But then thats just a guess, I really have no other clue.

[Gregoire de Lyon]

I don't know what that plate does.

I would recommend asking over on the Armour Design subsection of this forum. There are some awfully learned folks lurking about.

[Wyrm]

A better picture

[Egfroth]

The Order's cross had now taken the shape of a cross formée or pattée.."

The guy in the picture above has a cross pattée on his surcoat. If the cross had maintained its shape between this time and the transition to a red field (for which we DO have information) then that's what the guy would look like. The eight-pointed cross as used today seems to be later.

[GodfreyofGyldenholt]

When was the transition made to the red field? How long did it stay that way? Where there any other changes made in the future? For example i have seen a replica in a museum of a hospitaller with white robes and a white cross with gold lining in a red box. Enlighten me!

[Egfroth]

in 1259, as a result of a petition by the Order, permission was granted for all military members to wear a white cross on red (opposite to Templar)

gives you the start date. I do know that by the mid-16th century it was a white 8-pointed cross on black, but when the changeover happened, I don't know.

[Wyrm]

The guy in the picture above has a cross pattée on his surcoat.

I think I have to disagree, it is not the pattee but it is the formee cross. I am still learning the differences myself but I beleive the pattee has extended points.

http://www2.prestel.co.uk/church/oosj/cross.htm

[RandallMoffett]

Gents and ladies I think I found a possible source for the strange little eye slot reenforcments, although I think they are flat to my eyes at least. I will try to post the picture. It is of an effigy from the Brussels Museum from 1200-1230 but I do not have the name of the knight either. I will try getting more info but have looked for a few days on this led but have had no luck so figured I would share the little piece of infor for other diggers to help in the search.

RPM

[Eamonn MacCampbell]

I don't know how accurete this site is, but I found it when I was doing some research on the Hospitallers my self.

http://www.taoc.co.uk/content/view/94/47