Question about abnormal shielding

LordDraco3 · Post by **LordDraco3** » Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:36 pm

I'm a two-handed fighter, and was wondering if there are any types of shielding for us? I've seen hand shields and have been wondering how well those work with two handers, and I've also heard rumors about small round shields (about the size of hand shields) that one could strap to the forearm. I know they wouldn't be used in the same manner as a normal shield but they seem like a good way to protect the arms, which would be nice.

EDIT: I looked through a few different kinds of shields on wikipedia, and found this intresting article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lantern_shield

It sounds like the shield part of that contraption would work like I discussed above, with it being attached to the arm. Though after reading on all the things that a lantern shield has, I would like to see a pic of a real one. It even reminded me of the "full gauntlet" topic a LOT.

fishwoman · Post by **fishwoman** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:08 am

ok, lord draco, first can u tell us wat weapon your using?

LordDraco3 · Post by **LordDraco3** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:12 am

Great sword, typically.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:15 am

Generally, if you use a weapon in a hand that also has a shield attached to the arm, the shield becomes armor.

So, if the blow hits the shield, you lose the arm. This prevent people from A. Gaining an unfair advantage.
B. Doing something there is little to no historical examples of.

Personally, I'd like to see how long you were able to swing a 2-3# sword while also using an 8# shield. ;-)

LordDraco3 · Post by **LordDraco3** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:18 am

Ohh, I see. Well that defeats my plan

I guess having extra steel on my arm wouldn't be doing me any good then :oops:

freiman the minstrel · Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:06 am

Well, yes and no.

for the greatsword, certainly, but things can be different for the spear, or for anything at all and a backup weapon.

I assume that you are talking about SCA fighting here, not a way to keep the forge from setting the barn on fire.

f

Ahriman · Post by **Ahriman** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:30 am

Draco: I've a few quite good pictures of that lantern shield, but afaik, the wiki article is a bit faulty, as I was told that these are tournament pieces... and not all of them has a sword blade sticking out... one of my friends told me about one with an axe, sadly he wasn't allowed to take photos.
1
2
3
BTW, it's in the museum which houses, among other things, the german mail&plate horse armour... guess which museum it is.

Another interesting piece is the russian tarch... You can still hold other things in your hand, but I'd rather pick a pata instead of this.

Ceddie · Post by **Ceddie** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 6:45 am

There are plenty out there, the good part is the other guy is nice enough to carry them for you! Watch others fight great sword againts weapon and shield figure out how to move to use his shield to your advantage.

FergusStout · Post by **FergusStout** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:35 am

If this is for SCA fighting please note that the Kingdom of Ansteorra prohibits shields or bucklers designed to be used as a weapon. Marshal's Handbook Section 2 - Rule 6. http://marshal.ansteorra.org/handbook/Section2-ChivalricCombat.pdf
I think because the weapon and shield were integral it would fall within the boundary of that rule.

schreiber · Post by **schreiber** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:38 am

Heh... anyone else remember the Madu?
Haven't seen one of those in a loooooooong time now....

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:38 am

schreiber wrote:Heh... anyone else remember the Madu?
Haven't seen one of those in a loooooooong time now....

Thank God... :shock:

justus · Post by **justus** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:51 pm

We recently had this discussion on our lists,

The idea that you can't wear a shield, or that a sheild attached to your arm is armor, is a Pennsic convention that has worked it's way into our collective rule set.

The society rules do not prohibit it, and as far as I know neither do many kingdoms.

That being said, I've heard that the new version of the society rules will contian a passage similar to the pennsic rule.

Justus

LordDraco3 · Post by **LordDraco3** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:57 pm

Ahriman: Wow, that is an impressive weapon/shield/armour!

Fergus: I didn't plan on using anything like this offensively. I don't even think I could whack someone with a shield strapped to my forearm, at least not very easily :lol:

So I suppose using one of these items SCA-wize would be out of the question? They seem so intresting!

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 5:03 pm

justus wrote:We recently had this discussion on our lists,

The idea that you can't wear a shield, or that a sheild attached to your arm is armor, is a Pennsic convention that has worked it's way into our collective rule set.

The society rules do not prohibit it, and as far as I know neither do many kingdoms.

That being said, I've heard that the new version of the society rules will contian a passage similar to the pennsic rule.

Justus

The current proposed rule set does, yes.

JP

audax · Post by **audax** » Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:35 pm

Yes there is shielding for us polearmsmen and longsword fighters: it's called armor.

Specifically for the arms, vambraces. If you want to add a buckler and dagger for backup, it's historic and useful, so go nuts.

Those patas and lantern sheilds and the like are nothing more than novelty items that have questionable practical value. If you want to make one of Corby's "abnormal weapons" for fun, I say go for it.

But, please, O Lord, blow the madu to tiny bits, in thy mercy.

Regards,

audax the slightly deranged

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:55 pm

schreiber wrote:Heh... anyone else remember the Madu?
Haven't seen one of those in a loooooooong time now....

All depends on where you are. Odds are good that I'll see one on the field at any tourney I attend, although they do seem to be on a downward trend in popularity here in the East.

As to the basic question - for SCA fighting it is pointless as by definition the shield as described doesn't count as a shield. It's historically documentable to use a polearm with a shield strapped to one arm - Duke Vissevald Selkirkson found illumination(s) showing it and gave it a try for a little while. Even as strong as Vis is, he found it slowed him down by a critical margin.

I don't think even Ansteorra would consider this to be a shield combined with a weapon - we're talking about having a shield strapped to your arm, and holding the hilt of your sword with both hands - it's not combining the shield with the weapon. Or does Ansteorra ban "finger shields" or "hand shields" ? Those are actually on the hands right at the weapon....

Gavin

Maximillian · Post by **Maximillian** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 2:09 am

InsaneIrish wrote:
schreiber wrote:Heh... anyone else remember the Madu?
Haven't seen one of those in a loooooooong time now....

Thank God...

Unfortunately, here in Artemisia it is still widely used

Max

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 3:33 am

I am not sure I know what a Madu is? Anyone have a picture. It is very likely I have seen them as I have been to a number of SCa events over the last decade or so but do not think I have ever head anything called a madu.... I have seen a small buckler like devise called a madu or parrying shield is that the same thing?

RPM

Jehan de Pelham · Post by **Jehan de Pelham** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:52 am

Can someone just PM him a picture? I'd prefer not to have such a thing displayed publicly. :lol:

John
Jehan de Pelham, esquire and servant of Sir Vitus
www.mron.org

deBlakstan · Post by **deBlakstan** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:23 am

Picture a stick with thrusting tips on both ends and a basket hilt, with or without a small shield around the basket hilt, usually about 1/3 to 1/2 the way down the stick. They are still used widely here in the Outlands. Used for defense and thrusting.

Cameron

freiman the minstrel · Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:48 am

audax wrote: {snip}
Those patas and lantern sheilds and the like are nothing more than novelty items that have questionable practical value. If you want to make one of {snip}
Corby's "abnormal weapons" for fun, I say go for it.

audax the slightly deranged

Audax,

I think you might be incorrect in saying that a Pata is a historical novelty, if indeed that is what you were saying.

Stones Glossary shows photos of over thirty. It seems to be primarily a Mahrattan weapon, whatever that is. There are enough extant patas to suggest that they were fairly common.

I don't have a problem with Madus on the field, except that the number that have shown up would indicate a HUGE amount of trade and travel with India. I reject the assertion that a madu was a "peasant's weapon" as there are a number of them that are highly ornamented, at least some with precious materials, like ivory. In addition, Stone says;

It was also used by swordsmen for guarding, being held in the left hand

So the folks who are using one are probably using it correctly. If their personna story involves traveling to India then it would be appropriate. I don't use one, as it seems really stupid for an anglian or mercian saxon from 675 AD to have or use one, but I have no problem with other folks using one.

I also agree with a lot of folks in saying that it really has no place on a tourney field, 'cause that's just stupid.

freiman

Ahriman · Post by **Ahriman** » Mon Jul 03, 2006 12:04 pm

Ehm, sorry for the off, but the pata is a very good weapon... I mean, a very good weapon when it's made from steel, made well, and used as a weapon. Defends your hand more than a rapier's hilt, thrusts with much more precisity and power, and almost impossible to knock it out of your hand. It cuts quite nicely as well, especially those which use european c&t blades... it DOES take time to get used to it, but it's a very good weapon, which was used by the best fighters of the Mahratta Empire. Trivially, if penetrating ability, slicing cuts, and the like doesn't matter, it's a PoS.

Madu as a peasant weapon is quite... ahem... interesting.

It's mostly made using horns, which are not really the cheapest things. Peasants use katars. Everyone in India uses katars.

(but really, if a peasant has a weapon other than the usual staff or sickle, it's surely a katar)

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Wed Jul 05, 2006 11:23 am

I have sceen many people use small bucklers to armour there hand when fighting pole or great sword. having it count as armour does not apply as it only covers the hand that is a non legal target area.

audax · Post by **audax** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:42 pm

I thought the madu was an African weapon.

I remain unimpressed by the pata. If it was such a great weapon, I imagine it would have had more of a battlefield presence than seems indicated by the literature I've read. The fact there are several extant ones doesn't indicate common use, as there are few extant falchions but it was a very popular weapon. Perhaps I'm just too Euro-centric as regards weapons, but a madu or pata in the hands of a Viking or 14th Frenchman on the list field is absurd, to me.

I'll pit my poleaxe against a pata or madu any day.

audax

Sagebowman · Post by **Sagebowman** » Thu Jul 06, 2006 7:54 pm

A bit bigger in size than the hand buckler, but didn't some of the Scots use a targe with either a spike attached to it or a dirk blade protruing through its center? This wouldn't have been with great sword , but with broadsword or axe, or club.
Gene