Trouble with AB Hammer

Stonekeep · Post by **Stonekeep** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:35 am

You know this is a little on the ridiculous side....

I am actually supposed to accept criticism on how I run a business when in only 6 years of doing this full time AS a business I have become the largest producer of sca armor period?

Am I the only one who sees the utter idiocrosy of my competition coming on here in a public forum practically begging me to raise my prices?

Let me make something completely clear. This company does not produce a yearly profit. Never has. There are several reasons for this, up to an including that I donate a good bit of armor away, and I have always donated heavily to St Judes Children's Research Hospital and will continue to do so.
HOWEVER, even though this company does not make a profit, it still manages to pay its employees, pay its bills, create new products, improve existing products, provide great customer service, put out the largest volume of sca armor made anywhere, and produce it ON TIME to meet its obligations. This company does all of this while producing a product at the very best prices.

You come on here and suggest that I should raise my prices up high enough so people who have poor business practices have a better chance of getting someone to buy from them..

Forget it... If you can't provide good customer service with a good price, then go to work for someone who can. Theres several good armories out there.

Matt: I like you too. You seem nice when we have exchanged emails. I had no problem telling you that that liquor bottle had ahold of me at one time too. But having your own business means you work at least 12 hours a day at least 5 days a week and alcohol does nothing but slow you down, depress you, and waste your money. If you have a mental illness on top of that then its the last thing you need. Noone can tell you to put it down but you. Noone can pick you up and put you out in that shop 12 hours a day but you. The fact that you realize your limitations and you have taken steps to protect your customers (ie: payments when finished and getting your mom to take care of the shipping) goes a long way in my book to proving you have 10 times the character of someone such as Wombat. As the President of a business, I cannot raise my customers prices to help you compete. I have a stepbrother who reminds me of you and i love him dearly, but if I was talking to him I would say "get your butt up at 6am, get in the shop, quit after dark, and do it again the next day" Thats the only way it works. Period.

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 4:46 am

Ok first off the bottle does not have a hold on me. It's possible to have a few drinks without being an alchoholic. You caught me on the day after I'd had more then a few which only happens about once every two months or so. I've got a liquor bottle in my cupboard that I've had for 6 years and it still isn't empty.

Second I take 2 sedating medications daily and two more as needed. I have to sleep 10-12 hours a day more if I take one or both of the other two. If I stress myself I get sick. Meaning I start having halucinations or anxiety attacks etc. I take a mood stabilizer but still have manic and depressive days. On top of that I have 2 kids I take care of. I could give up and just go on disability. But I want to try and be usefull.

Third I wasn't trying to tell you how to run your business. I don't expect you to change for me. Just bugs me a little is all. Other things bug me too but the world doesn't revolve around me. Doesn't mean I can't complain once in a while though.

Mykaru · Post by **Mykaru** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:12 am

Stonekeep,

I am actually supposed to accept criticism on how I run a business when in only 6 years of doing this full time AS a business I have become the largest producer of sca armor period?

Am I the only one who sees the utter idiocrosy of my competition coming on here in a public forum practically begging me to raise my prices?

* You* seem ready to heap criticism on the business model of those others who do have to turn a profit. Raising prices would help the industry as a whole. I get tired of ignorant (not stupid) customers complaining X armoury charges 20$ for mass produced elbows and you charge $80 for raised high carbon elbows. You help perpetuate the ignorance. If the Walmart crowd is what you want, go for it. Personally I don't shop there. I can't really afford better places, but I won't support businesses who hurt american industries, close out mom and pop stores, and help China.

I am not your competition. I can and have done what you do. You are a long way from doing what I do now. I doubt you have the *desire* to do what I do now. If you did you'd be spending alot of your safety blanket on research and time spent studying and developing new techniques. It's a completely different customer base.

This is becoming a pi$$ing war and it shouldn't. I've said in the past, I admire your commitment to helping new fighters. Remember, part of the reason you are armouring today is those who helped resurrect a dying craft who came before you. Alan is one of them. ( He did help you with fan design a little while back, didn't he?)

wilmot · Post by **wilmot** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:12 am

------Mike from Stonekeep, make sure you have taken your heart meds---

Greetings,
I would like to comment on a few things, this discussion has turned into yet another bitch fest not related to the orginal topic. I beleave Alan has stopped taking custom orders, if you want a AB product go to Icefalcon, you will get your AB armour and you will have it fast. As for Stonekeep, Mike and I have had our issues and some of his comments in the past about the armour industary have hit nerves but it is HIS BUSINESS TO RUN and he has choosen to run it a certin way and this being a free country HE CAN DO THAT. Mike pretty much deals with the beginners who if they stick with this sport (most will not) will upgrade to someone who caters to a higher end crowd. I think what needs to be done is for people to be more vocal about when they get good service (and still point out when armourer's are flaking out) and point them it that direction.

Sorry for rambling,
Ronald

InfinitySteel · Post by **InfinitySteel** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:58 am

I'm sure that Alan will be much happier wholesaling. That's the route I'm going towards. I'm only doing custom for a while longer. Then finishing the tool up for stock runs. Here's the trick tho-it really doesn't take a lot longer to make a really period piece-than it does to make quick newbie gear that works-but really looks like absolute crap.

You simply have to work beyond the stubborn idea that it all has to be done by hand. And when you DO tool up-you go for the top end-not the fantasy cut-corner garbage.

Alan just needs to make enough to finish setting up and pay his bills doing wholesale. And then get rid of his back orders. It will doubtless take him some time to do both-and just how fast he manages will depend on how many hours he can work without crashing.

As far as his rep,if he keeps wholesalers satisfied-it won't be any issue at all-what's ready and right ALWAYS sells.

Stonekeep · Post by **Stonekeep** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:37 am

Matt: Forgive me. When you said something about having a problem with alcohol I didnt realize you meant THAT day. I was trying to offer support as when I had trouble with it, support from other people was extremely important in helping me get better. But I had "a few drinks" EVERY day. I was also trying to motivate you to get into the shop more, so you work more, so you make more money. I didnt realize that was something you have trouble doing because of mental illness. I still commend you for taking the steps you have taken to protect your customers.

Mykaru: Sorry if I got upset. You are not the first one who has talked down to me about how I run my business (more specifically pricing) when I know I have the largest producing and most successful armory going. You just caught me at a time when the ridiculousness of the situation overcame me and I lashed out. I have built and run what I feel is the single largest force in the low end to midrange armoring market, and I have accomplished this in only 6 years. I am very proud of that.

This armory has not, nor will it ever probably produce a yearly profit. I think that this statement maybe should have been explained a long time ago, so let me address that, then I will answer some of your posted statements. Some of that is the fact we have the best prices for the quality. Some of that is the amount of armor I just give away. A very large portion of that is I have always supported the ST Judes Children's Research Hospital, and I always will.
HOWEVER..This armory pays its bills. It pays its employees. It buys new materials, new tools, it searches how to make products better, it creates new products. It delivers those products to the customer on time or before without excuses. It delivers them at the best price possible. It maintains working and emergency capital to protect its customers from the unknown. This business is run as a business and has the same basic principals driving it as any other successful business.

You are very right in that you and I are on two totally seperate ends of the armor buying community. You make beautiful armor. The people that buy my armor probably want your armor but they cannot afford it. My range of armor starts at $9 pairs of simple fanless cops and extends up to stainless 3/4 legs with fluting and a little jazz on the fans if wanted for about $280. Thats a LARGE range for me to supply and a totally different customer base from any custom armory (or most). And that range being so large is why I end up with third and fourth "generation" customers coming back to upgrade. But when you say that I need to raise my prices so that people are more susceptible to go to my competition, where are you coming from with that? It doesnt make any sense to me and I dont understand that from a business perspective.

To answer your post:
You said I seem to heap criticism on people's business model who turn a profit. To be more accurate, I tend to heap criticism on people who run a profitable business by taking customer's money and not giving them a product in return or producing it way way later than they promised. I heap a LOT of criticism on those business models.

The next thing you said was basically I help perpetuate ignorance by selling CRS cops for under $20 when you charge $80 for spring steel.
I dont see that at all.. I dont believe I have ever spoken out whatsoever against spring steel. As a matter of fact, I have spoken with the leading authority on spring steel down in Houston as well as Iean about SKA someday mass producing spring steel products from cops all the way up to full steel arms and legs. I have just been waiting to see if the market is really going to take off since its such a small percentage of armor sales currently. But I dont see how I have perpetuated the ignorance of spring steel. I dont market it because I dont sell it (yet). I sure dont speak poorly of it. I am also watching Titanium as well, and someday instead of two columns on our website for CRS and Stainless, there may be 4: CRS, Stainless, Spring Steel, and Titanium. Pick your product then pick the materials you want it made in.

The walmart statement you are going to have to explain in further detail...
Im sure a lot of my customers shop at walmart (as do I) because like target, kmart, and others its about the only place to buy household essentials.
If you are making a general statement that you hate the fact the US is in such a trade deficit, then I definitely hate that as well, BUT all armor made by Stonekeep Armory is produced in Texas by American workers (except rattan) so Im not following you and you will have to explain what that has to do with SKA.

As a matter of fact, I was just offerred,( feel more like suckered) into almost importing some $7 bevors from pakistan because i was led to believe they were made by some good ole boy in pakistan trying to make a buck and we could help him out. When the "good ole boy" wrote to me it was signed Sami impex International which is basically the same type of company as Windlass Steelcrafts of India. I made haste to let everyone know in the post what they were REALLY dealing with and that i wouldnt be involved no matter how much money I could make. A bunch of them still went through with the deal though. I guess I could make $7 bevors but Id have to pay my employees about 10 cents an hour.

Most Important: Concerning Allan.
I have NEVER said a bad word against Allan, nor would I have any reason to. I have never been a customer of Allan's and therefore I have no basis to make any such statements. As I said earlier in this post, the only person I will speak out against is Wombat and with good reason. I have spoken with Allan on the phone (twice I think) and he seems like a super nice guy. I have no clue what his bsuiness practices are. Hes also making the new helm line for one of my best friends in this business and I think it was just what Andre needed so Im glad its working out well. White Mountain Armory and Iean were the ones who worked with me on our newer fan styles.
My reason for posting on here was to speak out against bad business practices and making excuses. And everytime I see it I will probably post because it is one of my pet peeves and the whole reason I got started doing this.

Ronald:
I've stopped taking a pill before I read your posts..hahhaa
I think we both realized that we both are people who feel strongly about doing the right thing.
There was a couple things you got upset with me about before.
One was the fact I was selling stainless armor one gauge below CRS. I think before it was over you even saw how prolific the idea is. Its even In the Ansteorran marshalls handbook. I was even selling at one gauge thicker than what they have determined is SCA minimums for stainless. (and one gauge thicker than what they say is sca minimum for crs). I had no clue whatsoever (especially from reading marshall's handbooks like your own) which refer to SCA minimums that in your kingdom 18 gauge ss is considered minimum. What I was frustrated about was even if your kingdom was different from everyone else then mine were still legal so I couldnt understand the issue. What you did was open my eyes to the fact that up there people want 16 gauge stainless even if they dont put it in their rules. You can't begin to sell armor that heavy down here in the south. They wont buy it. If you have been to the site anytime recently you will notice because of your input, we actually sell in three different thicknesses now a) "regular"- what people want down here b) Medium -what you were pushing for in your area and c)heavy- just ungodly heavy and I dont know why anyone would wear it. (even has 14 gauge cuisses and lames). Ive never sold one of those but Im selling a lot of the medium weights now up in your area and in the west.

The other thing which was probably the worst, was you thought I was targeting people like Cet, Ironmonger, ad Icefalcon to try and put them under. You didnt realize at the time that I actually buy helmtops all all kinds of tools from Ironmonger (and I have bought a couple tops from Cet), and I have spoken with Andre on several occasions to make sure Im not producing things that are gonna hurt his business (plus I send him commssions). Then the last time you and I spoke ,I know I mentioned that I had a business plan to bring out a line of 14 gauge cops with fans in various shapes and sell them at $9 a pair, but right before we launched, I realized that it would hit Cet right in the heart of his business and probably ruin it, so I scrapped the idea (probably 3 months before our "discussion"..lol).
So, I dont cringe when I see your posts anymore

, cause I know we both wanna be on the side of right, and probably most of the time we are gonna agree on stuff.

InfinitySteel · Post by **InfinitySteel** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 11:50 am

There's one glaring flaw in your business model Mike.

Lack of redundancy in your employee training. I can understand not wanting to give the whole process into the hands of workers who may decide to go out and do it on thier own. But's it's hurting your company now-since you going down has crippled the whole thing. And one has to take risks-that's life.

You may want to rethink that part.

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:25 pm

Mike- I think what Mykaru meant about the difference in the pricing of cops was that the clientelle only sees a large price difference and has no idea of the quality difference between the products. Given that they can't see a difference they are going to vote with their pocketbook. His answer is for you to raise your prices so that there is less disparity and the customers will perhaps try to ask more questions about what they are getting. I believe that it is incumbent on the high end armorer to advertise the advantages of his product clearly to potential customers.

As for not making a profit I take it that while Stonekeep pays its employees you are not paid? If you were paid what most owners are paid for a business with the sales that Stonekeep has what would that profit taking do to the prices for your products? How much would they go up to provide a commensurate salary for the owner? The beef here seems to be that many believe that you are not taking a salary and that that provides an unfair amount of leverage in the market. Clearer?

Captain Jamie

wilmot · Post by **wilmot** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:34 pm

Mike,
I don't think I said that using 18 ga. stainless steel knee cops was illegal, I said I felt it was not safe and I hold to that, I have spent my entire career in this sport (almost 29 years) in hard hitting areas and can tell you that almost every time I have hit a large piece of 18 gauge armour it has been damaged. I feel there are several things in the armour regs that are not safe like being able to wear a chainmail camail with no gorget under it, it may be legal but it is asking for trouble.

Ronald

PS; I hope your recovery from your recent operation is speedy as I hope to have you around for many more years of taunting.

InfinitySteel · Post by **InfinitySteel** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:38 pm

wilmot wrote:Mike,
I don't think I said that using 18 ga. stainless steel knee cops was illegal, I said I felt it was not safe and I hold to that, I have spent my entire career in this sport (almost 29 years) in hard hitting areas and can tell you that almost every time I have hit a large piece of 18 gauge armour it has been damaged. I feel there are several things in the armour regs that are not safe like being able to wear a chainmail camail with no gorget under it, it may be legal but it is asking for trouble.

Ronald

Making a buck is never worth putting someone's health and well being at risk. A competent armorer will ALWAYS err on the side of caution.

Ingvarr · Post by **Ingvarr** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 12:59 pm

Captain Jamie wrote:As for not making a profit I take it that while Stonekeep pays its employees you are not paid? If you were paid what most owners are paid for a business with the sales that Stonekeep has what would that profit taking do to the prices for your products? How much would they go up to provide a commensurate salary for the owner? The beef here seems to be that many believe that you are not taking a salary and that that provides an unfair amount of leverage in the market. Clearer?

I don't understand what the confusion is here. It seems like it stems from the fact that none of the business owners who have chimed in seem to understand what profit actually is. I'm guessing that it stems from running the business as if it were a one man shop. Payment - cost = profit. That's one way to look at it but it isn't truly a business perspective. It reads to me like stonekeep does it correctly, payment - cost - payroll - expenses = profit. I'm sure that his payroll is a part of the payroll but I suppose I could be wrong. He then takes his profit and disperses it as charitable contributions. This, I'm sure, is in a large part of of the goodness of his heart but it can't hurt at tax time either. There is a HUGE difference between not running at a profit and running at a loss.

Stonekeep · Post by **Stonekeep** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:31 pm

InfinitySteel wrote:There's one glaring flaw in your business model Mike.

Lack of redundancy in your employee training. I can understand not wanting to give the whole process into the hands of workers who may decide to go out and do it on thier own. But's it's hurting your company now-since you going down has crippled the whole thing. And one has to take risks-that's life.

You may want to rethink that part.

Well its hard to get good help anywhere. The last guy I had that could have filled a role like that left me for a $20 an hour job in computers.
(can you blame him, company car the whole shebang)
Plus, everyone I have tried to show how to articulate has had a huge learning curve, and we just dont have time for that. Its taken me ten years to articulate like I do. It takes me 10 minutes to show someone how to brush polish steel or draw parts out on steel. since I normally work 12-14 hour days I dont normally need anyone to to help me with MY work. I need someone over there brush polishing that steel.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 1:49 pm

Ingvarr wrote: There is a HUGE difference between not running at a profit and running at a loss.

Correct...and if he's paying himself a wage before "profit" it's totally different too.

World of difference between "not making a profit" and "not making any money." LOL

Stonekeep · Post by **Stonekeep** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:07 pm

Captain Jamie wrote:Mike- I think what Mykaru meant about the difference in the pricing of cops was that the clientelle only sees a large price difference and has no idea of the quality difference between the products. Given that they can't see a difference they are going to vote with their pocketbook. His answer is for you to raise your prices so that there is less disparity and the customers will perhaps try to ask more questions about what they are getting. I believe that it is incumbent on the high end armorer to advertise the advantages of his product clearly to potential customers.

As for not making a profit I take it that while Stonekeep pays its employees you are not paid? If you were paid what most owners are paid for a business with the sales that Stonekeep has what would that profit taking do to the prices for your products? How much would they go up to provide a commensurate salary for the owner? The beef here seems to be that many believe that you are not taking a salary and that that provides an unfair amount of leverage in the market. Clearer?

Captain Jamie

Well on the first part: Its basically like you said in your last sentence. Its not my job to tell people why Mykaru's cops should cost $80.

On the second part: With the amount of orders we get in, probably a maximum of 5% increase to provide me with a fairly large income.
For perspective that would be taking a $100 set of splinted arms and raising them to $105. A full 10% increase would be $110. Do you now see why I think thats fairly ridiculous?

InfinitySteel · Post by **InfinitySteel** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:55 pm

Stonekeep wrote:
InfinitySteel wrote:There's one glaring flaw in your business model Mike.

Lack of redundancy in your employee training. I can understand not wanting to give the whole process into the hands of workers who may decide to go out and do it on thier own. But's it's hurting your company now-since you going down has crippled the whole thing. And one has to take risks-that's life.

You may want to rethink that part.

Well its hard to get good help anywhere. The last guy I had that could have filled a role like that left me for a $20 an hour job in computers.
(can you blame him, company car the whole shebang)
Plus, everyone I have tried to show how to articulate has had a huge learning curve, and we just dont have time for that. Its taken me ten years to articulate like I do. It takes me 10 minutes to show someone how to brush polish steel or draw parts out on steel. since I normally work 12-14 hour days I dont normally need anyone to to help me with MY work. I need someone over there brush polishing that steel.

I don't buy it. if you run a well developed stock pattern it takes about a DAY to teach someone to articulate and strap. I mean, this isn't freaking rocket science. You draw a mark down an inside edge of a lame with a sharpie. You overlap a punched lame over that, in the retracted postion.

You line up the mark in the middle of the hole, you make another mark IN the hole. You drill that out, and stick in a loose rivet. You align the OTHER outside hole over the mark on the other side-making sure you leave enough underlap that it won't gap. Repeat 100 times.

I can teach a TEN YEAR OLD to do this crap-what's your excuse?

Here's the point I am trying to make. You have employees,you have experience. But you won't trust them. If I were in your position, I would be in there training MY employees how to do MY job. And I could do it without the use of hands or ANYTHING. As long as I had a mouth and eyes working, I could suprevise them.

What you are telling me, is that you CHOOSE to be down for two months-not that you HAVE to be.

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 2:57 pm

On the second part: With the amount of orders we get in, probably a maximum of 5% increase to provide me with a fairly large income.
For perspective that would be taking a $100 set of splinted arms and raising them to $105. A full 10% increase would be $110. Do you now see why I think thats fairly ridiculous?

Yep. And if that is all the increase it takes to provide an income for you from this then the bitching needs to stop. The business models are so different that there is not a comparison. Thanks for answering the question.

The high end armorers may want to look at helping to expand a market that wants high end goods. Help hold/sponsor events where high end portrayals are the norm. Appeal to the fashion conciousness of your clientele. Advertise why looking good in more period stuff is good for the client etc.

Captain Jamie

Stonekeep · Post by **Stonekeep** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:35 pm

InfinitySteel wrote:
Stonekeep wrote:
InfinitySteel wrote:There's one glaring flaw in your business model Mike.

Lack of redundancy in your employee training. I can understand not wanting to give the whole process into the hands of workers who may decide to go out and do it on thier own. But's it's hurting your company now-since you going down has crippled the whole thing. And one has to take risks-that's life.

You may want to rethink that part.

Well its hard to get good help anywhere. The last guy I had that could have filled a role like that left me for a $20 an hour job in computers.
(can you blame him, company car the whole shebang)
Plus, everyone I have tried to show how to articulate has had a huge learning curve, and we just dont have time for that. Its taken me ten years to articulate like I do. It takes me 10 minutes to show someone how to brush polish steel or draw parts out on steel. since I normally work 12-14 hour days I dont normally need anyone to to help me with MY work. I need someone over there brush polishing that steel.

I don't buy it. if you run a well developed stock pattern it takes about a DAY to teach someone to articulate and strap. I mean, this isn't freaking rocket science. You draw a mark down an inside edge of a lame with a sharpie. You overlap a punched lame over that, in the retracted postion.

You line up the mark in the middle of the hole, you make another mark IN the hole. You drill that out, and stick in a loose rivet. You align the OTHER outside hole over the mark on the other side-making sure you leave enough underlap that it won't gap. Repeat 100 times.

I can teach a TEN YEAR OLD to do this crap-what's your excuse?

Here's the point I am trying to make. You have employees,you have experience. But you won't trust them. If I were in your position, I would be in there training MY employees how to do MY job. And I could do it without the use of hands or ANYTHING. As long as I had a mouth and eyes working, I could suprevise them.

What you are telling me, is that you CHOOSE to be down for two months-not that you HAVE to be.

Geez already.... give it a rest.. the only comments you have made on this entire post have been blatantly negative towards me.
Could you be more transparent?

Stonekeep · Post by **Stonekeep** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:43 pm

Captain Jamie wrote:
On the second part: With the amount of orders we get in, probably a maximum of 5% increase to provide me with a fairly large income.
For perspective that would be taking a $100 set of splinted arms and raising them to $105. A full 10% increase would be $110. Do you now see why I think thats fairly ridiculous?

Yep. And if that is all the increase it takes to provide an income for you from this then the bitching needs to stop. The business models are so different that there is not a comparison. Thanks for answering the question.

The high end armorers may want to look at helping to expand a market that wants high end goods. Help hold/sponsor events where high end portrayals are the norm. Appeal to the fashion conciousness of your clientele. Advertise why looking good in more period stuff is good for the client etc.

Captain Jamie

They do actually.. Ive read several posts where they put on some really strict events more like living history type re-creations. They also have some combatant groups located within the sca where stricter rules are applied to authenticity, and they wear some beautiful custom armor.

InfinitySteel · Post by **InfinitySteel** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:45 pm

If you call facing reality negative,I don't know what more to say.

You began it by stating that you got into this business due to "lame excuses being offered". And then came in an offered some lame excuses of your own.

You DO have other options Mike-you just refuse to use them.

And I'm calling you on it. Don't dish it out..................

Stonekeep · Post by **Stonekeep** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:59 pm

InfinitySteel wrote:If you call facing reality negative,I don't know what more to say.

You began it by stating that you got into this business due to "lame excuses being offered". And then came in an offered some lame excuses of your own.

You DO have other options Mike-you just refuse to use them.

And I'm calling you on it. Don't dish it out..................

Excuse me? I had every disk in my neck removed 1 week ago and Im not allowed out of bed for 6 weeks except to piss, then I start rehab. I immediately refunded my customer's money. Exactly what lame excuses have I offerred? Who exactly do I OWE?

wilmot · Post by **wilmot** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 5:58 pm

Sir Vitale,
Did you hear anything from Alan lately.

Ron

Duke Icefalcon · Post by **Duke Icefalcon** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 6:48 pm

Gentlemen-

I have been in the business for over 18 years. One thing that I learned over the years, is that it is best to work together than against one another. There is room enough for all of the armorers on this list and more. Competition is good. It helps us improve our craft. I can say that I honestly like my competition very much. Most are men who have much of the same likes as myself. Although I have heard of bad armorers and reputations over the years, I try not to speak badly of them.

I know Mike Spears personally and find him to be a guy with a genuinely big heart. He is doing what he thinks is right, not just to make money. He is a better man than me.

Alan is another man who I hold in high regard. He will tell you himself that his business practices are weak. But I wish I had the talent he has in his pinky alone. If you want something from him, just order through us. I will make sure you get it. He has been making custom items for us for 2 years now, without a hitch or complaint. I will back him up with our customer service and make sure that you get what you order from us.

Infinity Steel- Your products look nice and solid. Talk to me when you are ready to wholesale. I am sure we can work out something that will keep us both happy and our customers.

Please be at peace with one another. Let's work out the problems face to face and charm each other via email. We have greater evils to fight than our family (you all).

With Respect-

Andreas

Mad Matt · Post by **Mad Matt** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:19 pm

No problem I think I had just said I was irritable because I had a hangover.

Sometimes I forget that not everyone knows about my illness.

Sir Vitale · Post by **Sir Vitale** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:33 pm

wilmot wrote:Sir Vitale,
Did you hear anything from Alan lately.

Ron

Have been in back an forther discussions all week about shipping options. This wasn't speeded up on anyones side by the 8 hour difference in our timezones.

I sent of payment for postage today, which will not have happened until after 5pm Kentucky time. So I hope they will be sent tomorrow.

(Sorry to hijack this thread :^)

Vitale

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:11 pm

Oh no, please ! By all means! You are the host after all.

Captain Jamie

wilmot · Post by **wilmot** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:43 am

"(Sorry to hijack this thread :^)"
I just wanted to get it back on track.

Ron

morristh · Post by **morristh** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:29 am

Sir Andreas Eisfalke wrote:Gentlemen-

I have been in the business for over 18 years. One thing that I learned over the years, is that it is best to work together than against one another. There is room enough for all of the armorers on this list and more. Competition is good. It helps us improve our craft. I can say that I honestly like my competition very much. Most are men who have much of the same likes as myself. Although I have heard of bad armorers and reputations over the years, I try not to speak badly of them.

I know Mike Spears personally and find him to be a guy with a genuinely big heart. He is doing what he thinks is right, not just to make money. He is a better man than me.

Alan is another man who I hold in high regard. He will tell you himself that his business practices are weak. But I wish I had the talent he has in his pinky alone. If you want something from him, just order through us. I will make sure you get it. He has been making custom items for us for 2 years now, without a hitch or complaint. I will back him up with our customer service and make sure that you get what you order from us.

Infinity Steel- Your products look nice and solid. Talk to me when you are ready to wholesale. I am sure we can work out something that will keep us both happy and our customers.

Please be at peace with one another. Let's work out the problems face to face and charm each other via email. We have greater evils to fight than our family (you all).

With Respect-

Andreas

His Grace is the man!!!!!!

Tim

Johann Lederer · Post by **Johann Lederer** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:11 am

morristh
Archive Member

Joined: 20 Jul 2004
Posts: 1200
Location: Leoma Tennessee
Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:29 am Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sir Andreas Eisfalke wrote:
Gentlemen-

I have been in the business for over 18 years. One thing that I learned over the years, is that it is best to work together than against one another. There is room enough for all of the armorers on this list and more. Competition is good. It helps us improve our craft. I can say that I honestly like my competition very much. Most are men who have much of the same likes as myself. Although I have heard of bad armorers and reputations over the years, I try not to speak badly of them.

I know Mike Spears personally and find him to be a guy with a genuinely big heart. He is doing what he thinks is right, not just to make money. He is a better man than me.

Alan is another man who I hold in high regard. He will tell you himself that his business practices are weak. But I wish I had the talent he has in his pinky alone. If you want something from him, just order through us. I will make sure you get it. He has been making custom items for us for 2 years now, without a hitch or complaint. I will back him up with our customer service and make sure that you get what you order from us.

Infinity Steel- Your products look nice and solid. Talk to me when you are ready to wholesale. I am sure we can work out something that will keep us both happy and our customers.

Please be at peace with one another. Let's work out the problems face to face and charm each other via email. We have greater evils to fight than our family (you all).

With Respect-

Andreas

His Grace is the man!!!!!!

Tim

And now you know why he is a Knight!
I salute you Your Grace![/quote]

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 9:50 am

InfinitySteel wrote:I guess that's to be expected when one caters to a fast food crowd.

Dude....do you practice being an asshole or does it just come naturally?

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:19 pm

InfinitySteel wrote:There's one glaring flaw in your business model Mike.

Lack of redundancy in your employee training. I can understand not wanting to give the whole process into the hands of workers who may decide to go out and do it on thier own. But's it's hurting your company now-since you going down has crippled the whole thing. And one has to take risks-that's life.

You may want to rethink that part.

But man...doesnt every armorer do that?
Ken Zicker....gone..with lots of peoples money
Wombat...gone..with lots of peoples money
AB...going...with lots of peoples money
Illusion...dissapeared for a bit with lots of peoples money

and the list goes on and on and on and on

At least Mike gets people what they order.

I am sick and tired of people defending others as being wonderful people when those people wont do it themselves.

I.E. Ken Zicker. Many people have told me that he is a wonderful honorable man. Bull. I havnt heard from him in 4 Months to me his name is mud. He took my money and ran.

I wish I had been able to get in touch with Mike before he went thrrough surgery.

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:06 pm

But man...doesnt every armorer do that?

No every armourer doesn't do that as you f*ing well know- GK didn't screw you, Halberds didn't screw you, the few you list might screw people repetedly ( and I could add a few more) but a half dozen guys doesn't represent the whole armouring community are not the extent of the armouring comunity:

Windrose, Mandrake,Adam Berry, Ice Falcon, GK, Clang, Mykaru, Red Falcon,Thaden, Mac, Jeff Hedgcock, Raymond the Quite, Sasuke, House of the Wolf, MRKS, Ron never did it when he ran RFH and I don't do it on either side of my business. now.... this isn't an exhaustive list: I could find three reputable armourers for every one you post who's screw up and I could do it without much effort.

Stonekeep · Post by **Stonekeep** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:35 pm

Its always gonna be that way Cet...

100 orders done perfectly might get you one good review, but one order you drop the ball on and do someone wrong will get you a bad review. Thats why every order is so sacred.

But the main thing a happy customer can do for you is recommend you to their friends when they are about to go shop for armor. That's the most important thing. Good public reviews of orders received on time are just hard to come by.

Stonekeep · Post by **Stonekeep** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:43 pm

Stonekeep wrote:Its always gonna be that way Cet...

100 orders done perfectly might get you one good review, but one order you drop the ball on and do someone wrong will get you a bad review. Thats why every order is so sacred.

But the main thing a happy customer can do for you is recommend you to their friends when they are about to go shop for armor. That's the most important thing. Good public reviews of orders received on time are just hard to come by.

Think about this: Ive probably personally only seen 2 at the most good reviews on you, but Ive NEVER seen a bad one. Thats whats important.

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:09 pm

Cet, before you FREAK out...what I meant was...

Doesnt every armorer NOT train? You show me 5 professional armorers that train others in thier staff to take over if something should happen to them.

GK...alsmot did..My order was 6 months late! And even he isnt takign anymore orders!

No Hal didnt...but Hal isnt trying to do this as a full time business

AB Hammer · Post by **AB Hammer** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:16 pm

MJBlazek

AB...going...with lots of peoples money

You don't reed very well, and need t look again.
going with lots of peoples money?

AB isn't going anywhere and slander like that causes alot more problems. I do mean slander. If you know of anybody send me a PM or a email, so I can make things wright, but don't go saying things that are not true. I have had to deal with more than my shair of overblown slander all to long.

I still have a 99% saticfaction rate over the last 20 years