What do you wish you could do?

For those of us who wish to talk about the many styles and facets of recreating Medieval armed combat.
Saint-Sever
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Re: What do you wish you could do?

Post by Saint-Sever »

SyrRhys wrote:[

1.) Eliminate the acting out of blows and simulate the battering effect of powerful strikes with a counted blow system.


Boy, wouldn't that be nice? Some years back, I stopped falling down dead in tournaments (still do it in wars, as it adds to the general ambiance of the battlefield to have dead people strewn about), instead opting to call "well struck!", step out of range, kneel, bow my head and place my sword point-down on the ground. It must signify submission sufficiently, because I never got told to fall down when doing so.

As far as counted blows, if some mechanism could be created that would keep our fights from becoming sniping contests at exposed arms and legs, I'd like that. One of the things that makes counted blow fights at pas d'armes so attractive is that all the combatants come from the SCA tradition of putting their main effort into striking at the head and body-- the blows that end the fight. Once that tradition begins to weaken under a "one down, four more to go" mentality, the fighting might not be as "lethally" directed as it is now.

2.) Institute some *limited* "armor as worn" rules, such as making basket hilts count as a valid target to simulate the use of an unprotected hand (even a mail muffler can't help much--it might protect you from having fingers severed, but it would be enough to cause you to stop fighting, and that will force people to learn to use their crosses correctly), and making thrusts to certain unarmored spots (e.g., bar grills) count as an instant win (and, of course, thrusts to closed-faced visors would only count as a good blow--a "counted" blow--if they were hard enough).


Do you think that this might result in kendo-like hand hunting bouts? Like I said before, one of the good thigs derived from the SCA's current fighting rules is a concentration by combatants on striking at the opponent's head and torso, instead of focusing on sniping at briefly exposed extremities.

3.) Also, allow more extensive target zones by making the shins legal targets: this would have the effect of reducing the value of magical shields to make combat more accurately balanced and would force more people to wear god-damned greaves like God intended.


No greaves in 1150 AD, Rhys! And as splendid as you look on the field in Geoff Charnay's gear, in (SCA) reality, you're wearing Billy Marshal's harness. Seriously, I don't know if this would make much difference. We tried this as an unofficial experiment in the West a long time ago, and found that it was actually kind of hard to hit someone in the lower leg unless you were right on top of him, and then it ususally resulted in a double-leg hit: one for each combatant. Trying for a shin from long range ususally resulted in your opponent moving the leg before your shot landed and riposting, to your detriment. It was too easy to see the shot coming. As far as 1150 AD, there is no rigid protection save for a helmet and a shield, so shields are worn long as a result. Long shield, less shin.

4.) Finally, add some limited grappling into our play. This is the area where our simulation breaks down the most when compared with reality. It needn't be fully-blown throws and locks, just allow limited "holds". When I look at the iconography of sword and shield combat (see below) this is what I see--not hip throws and joint locks, just holds to allow you to hit. This would be perfectly safe and practical if only people could get past their ludicrous modern notion that grappling is somehow unchivalrous.


I'm not convinced that grappling is that big a factor in 1150 AD knightly combat. (I keep bringing up "1150 AD", because that's pretty much the presumed armor for SCA fighting) You see it represented in illuminations, but if it makes up even 20% of the scenes illustrated, I'd be surprised. Grappling is hard when your primary rigid defense is a shield-- you need one hand for the weapon, and one for the shield. To grab at your opponent, you'd have to give up one or the other, and do do either puts you at a sore disadvantage. Shields for the knightly class went away when plate armor became prevelant, which opens up lots of room for cunning WMA grabby-stuff, but not 300 years earlier. I'm also not convinced that you can effectively grapple with someone who is armed and not interested in cooperating with being grappled with, unless you are willing to keep charging in, head down and getting hit a lot as you attempt to close. People with ill intent have been trying to take me to the ground to really kill me for almost 20 years, and so far only one has succeeded, and only briefly. (I was younger then, and not as canny as I am now, in my old age.)

Limiting the size of shields would help too, but you'll always get the folks who can prove larger shields were used in period (ignoring the fact that those shields had drawbacks we can't simulate well).


Since I'm planning on moving to one of those larger shields as part of my move to "the dark side" (as Brian Price tells me I'm doing), what disadvantages? Maybe I need to re-think staying in the 14th Century!

Other than those things I believe much of what we do matches well with what the iconography shows, and I think even the most ardent critics of SCA fighting have been taught that the ubiquitous wrap shop is demonstrably medieval, so that removes almost the only possible criticism.


I agree with you. In fact, I agree with you on most things, Rhys.

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Post by Murdock »

Don't worry Mike 1150 is still "late period" compared to most of Meridies.

:p
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Post by adamstjohn »

A strike to a baskethilt makes the hand useless, a strike to a gauntlet achieves nothing.

Closed face helms are immune to face thrusts.

Plate (including helms) is proof against arrows and single handed weapons.

Any kind of open handed pushing, pulling and hooking of weapon, shield and opponent is OK.

Lower leg and knee shots are OK, but low force required.

No more acted blows.

That's about it.

Jeez, I wish I was Earl Marshal! I could do whatever I liked! :roll:
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Post by Josh W »

Plate (including helms) is proof against arrows and single handed weapons.


I really like this idea. ;)

That, combined with the one listed after it, would make shieldmen easy pickings for me? :D
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Re: What do you wish you could do?

Post by SyrRhys »

Saint-Sever wrote:Boy, wouldn't that be nice? Some years back, I stopped falling down dead in tournaments (still do it in wars, as it adds to the general ambiance of the battlefield to have dead people strewn about), instead opting to call "well struck!", step out of range, kneel, bow my head and place my sword point-down on the ground. It must signify submission sufficiently, because I never got told to fall down when doing so.


I do that, too. Flopping around on the ground in single combat is silly.

As far as counted blows, if some mechanism could be created that would keep our fights from becoming sniping contests at exposed arms and legs, I'd like that. One of the things that makes counted blow fights at pas d'armes so attractive is that all the combatants come from the SCA tradition of putting their main effort into striking at the head and body-- the blows that end the fight. Once that tradition begins to weaken under a "one down, four more to go" mentality, the fighting might not be as "lethally" directed as it is now.


How do you know that wasn't the case in period? My goal is to create a system that so closely recreates medieval circumstances that we can make some educated guesses about what real knights must have done. And consider the Bertrand de Born poem where he talks about "hacking heads and arms"; granted, he's almost certainly referring to mounted combat, but I think the arms and hands are going to be a *primary* target for a medieval knight. The head is covered in solid iron, the body is protected by the fact that mail tends to hang away from the body and thus the inertia of the mail gives some protection (I've felt this myself when fighting in mail) and the shield mostly covers the head and body anyway and the legs are hard to hit. To me, that says that hands and arms will and should be *primary* targets.

Do you think that this might result in kendo-like hand hunting bouts? Like I said before, one of the good thigs derived from the SCA's current fighting rules is a concentration by combatants on striking at the opponent's head and torso, instead of focusing on sniping at briefly exposed extremities.


See above. The good thing would be a concentration that matches what they really did in period, and one thing German swordsmanship has taught me is the importance of using the cross to defend your hands!

No greaves in 1150 AD, Rhys! And as splendid as you look on the field in Geoff Charnay's gear, in (SCA) reality, you're wearing Billy Marshal's harness. Seriously, I don't know if this would make much difference. We tried this as an unofficial experiment in the West a long time ago, and found that it was actually kind of hard to hit someone in the lower leg unless you were right on top of him, and then it ususally resulted in a double-leg hit: one for each combatant. Trying for a shin from long range ususally resulted in your opponent moving the leg before your shot landed and riposting, to your detriment. It was too easy to see the shot coming. As far as 1150 AD, there is no rigid protection save for a helmet and a shield, so shields are worn long as a result. Long shield, less shin.


Well, my friend, here's the thing: If you aren't wearing the armor you need to fight safely, then I would argue you're not doing a good job of interpreting your period. Move your persona to a time period when they *did* wear greaves (besides, medieval chicks dig 'em--Mac himself taught me that).

I'm not convinced that grappling is that big a factor in 1150 AD knightly combat. (I keep bringing up "1150 AD", because that's pretty much the presumed armor for SCA fighting) You see it represented in illuminations, but if it makes up even 20% of the scenes illustrated, I'd be surprised. Grappling is hard when your primary rigid defense is a shield-- you need one hand for the weapon, and one for the shield. To grab at your opponent, you'd have to give up one or the other, and do do either puts you at a sore disadvantage. Shields for the knightly class went away when plate armor became prevelant, which opens up lots of room for cunning WMA grabby-stuff, but not 300 years earlier. I'm also not convinced that you can effectively grapple with someone who is armed and not interested in cooperating with being grappled with, unless you are willing to keep charging in, head down and getting hit a lot as you attempt to close.


Take a look at the picture I posted in my original post--it's a little after 1150, perhaps, but not much if it is. And I'm not arguing for the kind of complex Kampfringen (armored grappling) one sees in the Fechtbücher: in the first place I haven't found a way to do it safely in a full-speed competitive environment, and in the second place I see no evidence for it in the earlier periods--mostly they show a "grab" such as the ones in the pic I posted. You see the same things in the Manessa Codex. As for shields, in my experience the bigger the shield the more vulnerable the user is to grappling!

Since I'm planning on moving to one of those larger shields as part of my move to "the dark side" (as Brian Price tells me I'm doing), what disadvantages? Maybe I need to re-think staying in the 14th Century!


With the admittedly spectacular exception of a few amazing fighters, when I see a big shield coming at me in single combat I relax because I know the fight's going to be easier than I thought. Much of my style of fighting is based around getting someone else's big shield in his own way--I think they're a *huge* disadvantage.

And how could you leave the glorious 14C??? It's the ideal SCA combat period--the only one where you can really fight in realistic and authentic armor and still be successful. Oh, you can do some things in 15th C armor, but it's very expensive to get a harness that's accurate enough to allow you to fight well in it, and then you can't use a shield.

I agree with you. In fact, I agree with you on most things, Rhys.

Michael


LOL! Careful, my friend: they'll tar and feather you next--don't think the forces of mediocrity have used it all up on me! :wink:
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Post by mattmaus »

Josh Warren wrote:
Plate (including helms) is proof against arrows and single handed weapons.


I really like this idea. ;)

That, combined with the one listed after it, would make shieldmen easy pickings for me? :D


Your having the same happy fantasy I am.

Wading through the ranks with a zwiehander and mowing them down like cattle...
It looked better in my head....
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Post by blackbow »

Rhys: re: deforming shields... have you thought about a couple of layers of heavy leather around a central boss?

hit it, it deforms until it's too small to be of any use, then literally "iron" it out on a press between bouts.

regards
JB
SyrRhys wrote:
Dante della Luna wrote:My only thought on the 1" thick shield was that the bigger they were, the heavier they would be, and it would encourage smaller shields.


I understood your intent, but we have to be really careful not to replace an inauthentic thing with another inauthentic thing--then we're no farther ahead.

That's kind of like the guys who want to do a more medieval kind of fighting, so they start fighting sword and buckler--but sword & buckler wasn't used in full armor and certainly wasn't used in tournaments in armor, so they replace one inauthentic thing (SCA-style fighting) with another inauthentic thing (using a buckler in full harness). The right answer is to change the SCA fighting system to make it more authentic, and that's the kind of solution we need for this problem.

One thing I'd considered is making some kind of "rapid form" shield making brace and making a bunch of them before an event, then telling people that if they want to use shields they have to use one of the ones provided. I think that would get old fast, however, and would be pretty pricey, too, in the long run. Besides, can you imagine the *whining* when you tell SCAdians they have to do something more realistic and won't let them be themselves (as if this was still a bunch of commie Berkleyites from the 60s!)?
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Post by SyrRhys »

blackbow wrote:Rhys: re: deforming shields... have you thought about a couple of layers of heavy leather around a central boss?

hit it, it deforms until it's too small to be of any use, then literally "iron" it out on a press between bouts.


No, I've never considered that. Wouldn't the leather grow soft in pretty short order? It seems you'd need a new shield of very expensive leather every few months, wouldn't you? Besides, I don't use shields with bosses.

Interesting idea, though, but I still think one-layer of thin plywood would make a better alternative.
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Post by blackbow »

If it took away the magical impenetrable shield (yeah, I hate those too) I'd be glad to pay double my yearly dues. I only suggested a boss because it would require a real gauntlet. If you come up with a way to make it with a regular heater shape I'd be all over it.

I've thought about plywood but it shatters into potentially unsafe fragments. I know they had shields in tournament jousting that were specifically designed to come apart when hit but I can't see that here. One hit isn't enough.

I've also thought about requiring a certain # of "measurably stout" blows to a shield and then declaring it broken.

Believe me, the list of inaccuracies in the SCA that drives me nuts is as long or longer than yours, and if yours is longer, it's because of my ignorance. CA just happens to be one that doesn't bother me.

magical impenetrable shields
unpadded polearms
etc etc etc

JB

SyrRhys wrote:
blackbow wrote:Rhys: re: deforming shields... have you thought about a couple of layers of heavy leather around a central boss?

hit it, it deforms until it's too small to be of any use, then literally "iron" it out on a press between bouts.


No, I've never considered that. Wouldn't the leather grow soft in pretty short order? It seems you'd need a new shield of very expensive leather every few months, wouldn't you? Besides, I don't use shields with bosses.

Interesting idea, though, but I still think one-layer of thin plywood would make a better alternative.
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Post by Jonathon More »

I would be doing the happy dance if magic shields would be a thing of the past. That being said, I have no idea how to bring about that goal. Oh yeah, some kind of armour as worn gig would be hip
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Post by SyrRhys »

blackbow wrote:If it took away the magical impenetrable shield (yeah, I hate those too) I'd be glad to pay double my yearly dues. I only suggested a boss because it would require a real gauntlet. If you come up with a way to make it with a regular heater shape I'd be all over it.

I've thought about plywood but it shatters into potentially unsafe fragments. I know they had shields in tournament jousting that were specifically designed to come apart when hit but I can't see that here. One hit isn't enough.

I've also thought about requiring a certain # of "measurably stout" blows to a shield and then declaring it broken.


I'm less bothered by the magically impenetrable shield than some might be. I have a suspicion that there were techniques for blocking with shields that involved slapping the incoming pole arm from the side with the shield to block and things like that that would have made shields more durable than we might realize. Besides, I suspect that if you broke a shield in single combat you just went and got another one and started over. No, my problem is with the use of huge infantry shields of the sort primarily used by partially-armed troops that make it impossible to hit around them since we limit the legal strike zones: that's why I'm so strongly in favor of hitting the lower limbs.

Believe me, the list of inaccuracies in the SCA that drives me nuts is as long or longer than yours, and if yours is longer, it's because of my ignorance. CA just happens to be one that doesn't bother me.


LOL! I doubt anyone has a longer list of those things than I, but I shan't argue it with you. But with respect, I would argue your problem with CA is that you haven't studied enough--but I promise not to open that wound on this thread.
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Post by Murdock »

yal know i love most of whats suggested



but right now

I just wanna fight more.




Bummed cuz i couldn't get to Chicago area practice tonight.

:(
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Post by blackbow »

I doubt it; I'm generally too easygoing to care about stuff like that. Even if you showed me chapter and verse saying "x didn't happen", like Logan can with madus, I just don't care. I think it breaks down to "why person X joined the SCA" and I joined because it was an interesting sport, not the Last Bastion of Honor and Chivalry in the World. The SCA is too much of a mishmash of EVERYTHING for me to try to make it into something it can't be. When the Scotsman hoists a glass of sake right next to the samurai drinking Everclear out of a polyurethane-covered cow horn...it's not worth the effort it would take to make it into anything else, to me. I'd rather be in a crowd of 15,000 people and simply be amused by the diversity than be offended by the diversity that got me into the group in the first place and go join a splinter group that can sometimes get 100 people to attend its biggest event.

Regards,

Jonathan Blackbow

SyrRhys wrote:
blackbow wrote:If it took away the magical impenetrable shield (yeah, I hate those too) I'd be glad to pay double my yearly dues. I only suggested a boss because it would require a real gauntlet. If you come up with a way to make it with a regular heater shape I'd be all over it.

I've thought about plywood but it shatters into potentially unsafe fragments. I know they had shields in tournament jousting that were specifically designed to come apart when hit but I can't see that here. One hit isn't enough.

I've also thought about requiring a certain # of "measurably stout" blows to a shield and then declaring it broken.


I'm less bothered by the magically impenetrable shield than some might be. I have a suspicion that there were techniques for blocking with shields that involved slapping the incoming pole arm from the side with the shield to block and things like that that would have made shields more durable than we might realize. Besides, I suspect that if you broke a shield in single combat you just went and got another one and started over. No, my problem is with the use of huge infantry shields of the sort primarily used by partially-armed troops that make it impossible to hit around them since we limit the legal strike zones: that's why I'm so strongly in favor of hitting the lower limbs.

Believe me, the list of inaccuracies in the SCA that drives me nuts is as long or longer than yours, and if yours is longer, it's because of my ignorance. CA just happens to be one that doesn't bother me.


LOL! I doubt anyone has a longer list of those things than I, but I shan't argue it with you. But with respect, I would argue your problem with CA is that you haven't studied enough--but I promise not to open that wound on this thread.
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Post by blackbow »

I'm sure there were techniques for avoiding getting your shield busted, but I've also read about squires whose job it was to follow their knight with spare shields for replacing the one he was holding when it broke.

If you wanted to allow somebody to "break" a shield in single combat and go get another one I'd be fine with it. How many shields are you going to make, though? I'd also be curious to find out whether they actually DID allow you to go get another shield. I read the Vikings allowed three shields and then you were screwed.

I also know for a fact that the Romans had spears specifically designed to get stuck in your shield so you couldn't hold it up any more. I dunno whether they did that in single combat though.

JB

SyrRhys wrote:I'm less bothered by the magically impenetrable shield than some might be. I have a suspicion that there were techniques for blocking with shields that involved slapping the incoming pole arm from the side with the shield to block and things like that that would have made shields more durable than we might realize. Besides, I suspect that if you broke a shield in single combat you just went and got another one and started over. No, my problem is with the use of huge infantry shields of the sort primarily used by partially-armed troops that make it impossible to hit around them since we limit the legal strike zones: that's why I'm so strongly in favor of hitting the lower limbs.

Believe me, the list of inaccuracies in the SCA that drives me nuts is as long or longer than yours, and if yours is longer, it's because of my ignorance. CA just happens to be one that doesn't bother me.


LOL! I doubt anyone has a longer list of those things than I, but I shan't argue it with you. But with respect, I would argue your problem with CA is that you haven't studied enough--but I promise not to open that wound on this thread.
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Post by SyrRhys »

blackbow wrote:I'm sure there were techniques for avoiding getting your shield busted, but I've also read about squires whose job it was to follow their knight with spare shields for replacing the one he was holding when it broke.


That's the point--our magical unbreakable shields aren't really an issue because in pperiod they'd just replace them. the *real* problem with our shields is that they're often too large and they cover the only parts we can hit. that's why the real way to make this better is to make the shins and feet legal targets.

If you wanted to allow somebody to "break" a shield in single combat and go get another one I'd be fine with it. How many shields are you going to make, though? I'd also be curious to find out whether they actually DID allow you to go get another shield. I read the Vikings allowed three shields and then you were screwed.


Well, I'm not a viking (nor do I play one on the weekends), but I think maybe I'm not expressing myself well here, and for that I apologize. The breakability or lack thereof is a pretty minor point because, as you point out, a knight would just get another and continue. Yes, a lucky pole weapon blow in melee might do in a shield and allow for a decisive attack, but increasing target zones are far more important.

I also know for a fact that the Romans had spears specifically designed to get stuck in your shield so you couldn't hold it up any more. I dunno whether they did that in single combat though.


Yes, they did, and a very clever trick it was, too! And the shaft near the head was iron so you couldn't just hack them off, and the pin connecting the head to the wooden shaft was easily broken so you couldn't thrwo them back after they'd been thrown at you. Those pilum were a pretty sophisticated weapon!

Fortunately, they weren't used during our period and therefore aren't an issue.
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Post by blackbow »

I don't think they'd stop the war to allow the knight to get another shield. I don't think they'd stop the tourney either. I'm all for increasing the target area but didn't you say the shields would just get bigger?

I remember a time when shields were required to weigh 2.5 lbs/sq. ft. For that very reason.

JB

SyrRhys wrote:
blackbow wrote:I'm sure there were techniques for avoiding getting your shield busted, but I've also read about squires whose job it was to follow their knight with spare shields for replacing the one he was holding when it broke.


That's the point--our magical unbreakable shields aren't really an issue because in pperiod they'd just replace them. the *real* problem with our shields is that they're often too large and they cover the only parts we can hit. that's why the real way to make this better is to make the shins and feet legal targets.

If you wanted to allow somebody to "break" a shield in single combat and go get another one I'd be fine with it. How many shields are you going to make, though? I'd also be curious to find out whether they actually DID allow you to go get another shield. I read the Vikings allowed three shields and then you were screwed.


Well, I'm not a viking (nor do I play one on the weekends), but I think maybe I'm not expressing myself well here, and for that I apologize. The breakability or lack thereof is a pretty minor point because, as you point out, a knight would just get another and continue. Yes, a lucky pole weapon blow in melee might do in a shield and allow for a decisive attack, but increasing target zones are far more important.

I also know for a fact that the Romans had spears specifically designed to get stuck in your shield so you couldn't hold it up any more. I dunno whether they did that in single combat though.


Yes, they did, and a very clever trick it was, too! And the shaft near the head was iron so you couldn't just hack them off, and the pin connecting the head to the wooden shaft was easily broken so you couldn't thrwo them back after they'd been thrown at you. Those pilum were a pretty sophisticated weapon!

Fortunately, they weren't used during our period and therefore aren't an issue.
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Post by SyrRhys »

blackbow wrote:I don't think they'd stop the war to allow the knight to get another shield. I don't think they'd stop the tourney either. I'm all for increasing the target area but didn't you say the shields would just get bigger?

I remember a time when shields were required to weigh 2.5 lbs/sq. ft. For that very reason..


In war, no. If you'll re-read my post I talked about that. But in friendly deeds of arms, sure they did. We read lots of accounts where the combatants stopped to "rest and re-arm". Hell, they broke swords all the time and replaced them--look at the deed of arms at Vannes--Froissart tells us that in six blows they broke four swords; you don't think they carried extra swords ontot he field, do you?

As for shields getting bigger, that was part of what I was trying to limit. My point about issuing shields had more to do with limiting their size than it did about being breakable (although that was part of it).

I'm not too concerned about shield size, either, really, not if we increase target areas. Too large of a shield is a severe detriment. What I was worried about is large shields when we *don't* allow wider targeting and how to balance that.

Weight is definitely not the way to go, in my opinion. I mean, I get the point of the idea, but it fosters inauthentic style of use in more realistic shields because they're heavier than the real thing.
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Post by Vebrand »

You know I have always been against the armor as worn rule for across the SCA. O’ I think it's cool in certain tourneys and like to watch guys fight it in full armor.

The reason I dislike it is you well end up with an arms and armor race where everyone ends up in the same period and heavy armor to match the next guy. When half the guys come out in steel and the others are in titanium or aluminum you will hear the argument about material. How heavier material should get a better advantage.

It also smacks of one time period forcing it’s self on all the other time periods. Though it may not be peoples desire to do so it does come across as my armor and time period is better so I get a bonus. One of the good things about the SCA is its openness to different time periods and looks.

There is much I look at with Rhys writing I agree with and much I would in certain formats support.

Just my 2 cents,
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Post by mattmaus »

SyrRhys wrote:Yes, they did, and a very clever trick it was, too! And the shaft near the head was iron so you couldn't just hack them off, and the pin connecting the head to the wooden shaft was easily broken so you couldn't thrwo them back after they'd been thrown at you. Those pilum were a pretty sophisticated weapon!


It was my understanding that the very long skinny iron head/shaft which contributed to it's ability to pierce a sheild, were also somewhat easily bent. Making them even more dificult to pry out.

If you speared the guy behind the shield on accident, that's a bonus. The real treat is making his sheild so cumbersome and unweildy that he's little choice but to discard it.
It looked better in my head....
Damnit.
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Post by SyrRhys »

Vebrand wrote:It also smacks of one time period forcing it’s self on all the other time periods. Though it may not be peoples desire to do so it does come across as my armor and time period is better so I get a bonus. One of the good things about the SCA is its openness to different time periods and looks.


But our rule set does that already. What's wrong with making our rule set and our look match?
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Post by Syrfinn »

just throwing this out there, since i know it will come up, but this is straight from Corpora, as far as timeline goes.

A BRIEF INTRODUCTION TO THE SOCIETY FOR CREATIVE ANACHRONISM
The Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc. (SCA, Society) is a nonprofit educational organization devoted to study of the Middle Ages and Renaissance. Most of its activities take place in the context of a social structure adapted from the forms of the European Middle Ages, which allows participants to take a first-hand look at various aspects of the life, culture and technology of the times under study.

As a living history group, the Society provides an environment in which members can recreate various aspects
the culture and technology of the period, as well as doing more traditional historical research. We sponsor events such as tournaments and feasts where members dress in clothing styles worn in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, and participate in activities based on the civil and martial skills of the period. These activities recreate aspects of the life and culture of the landed nobility in Europe prior to 1600 CE. The dress, pastimes, and above all the chivalric ideals of the period serve to unify our events and activities.

For Society members, most of the world, and all of the centuries prior to the 17th, can serve as a source for personal research. However, the further you go from the core of Medieval and Renaissance Europe, the less the environment we offer will resemble what someone of your time and country would find natural or homelike. For example, you can be an Asian or African guest at a European court, but you cannot expect others to share your special interests - like any long-term visitor in a foreign land, you are the one who will have to adapt to the customs you find around you. Since members have free choice of what areas they will explore, it follows that Society branches cannot decide to specialize in a specific time and place, since that would make it hard for members there to pursue their own interests in other times and places.

Granted, my persona is not from the Medieval or Renaissance period of Europe, but earlier.

But at least my personna would of had chain, so I can adapt to the early medieval rule set if needed.

But I defiently would not be for what you have on is what you have on, cause like stated before. We would just have a bunch of 15th century folks out there in armor most likely, and well, one reason I love the SCA and I am not part of a specific time period group, is the diversity of the SCA.

Sorry, but for me one of the things I love, is showing up to Pennsic, and see all the different varieties of armor and personnas out there. Heck, its one reason I left the 14th Century Mafia, and became part of the 5th Century mafia. :p I like seeing all the different types of kits from the different time periods.

Like Saint-Severe wrote before, though I am not using his exact words. and well I will be using when I describe things for now on. Its the Arthurian ideal, that allows all these to be at the same place at the same time, and is also one of the things that make the SCA a very special place.
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Post by Vebrand »

SyrRhys wrote:But our rule set does that already. What's wrong with making our rule set and our look match?


Our rules set a standard for calling blows but not for what armor is worn or how it affects blows. If I were able to hit you with a solid shot to the body with a poleaxe that was good it should (in theory) be the same force I hit Joe Celt in just a kidney belt with. Both of you should call the shot the same way.

Now if we went to armor as worn then my fear would be those who could not afford to fight in full plate would feel as if they can not play anymore and leave. That it would be all about who could make the lightest set of plate armor to be competitive. Where would we draw the line? Would there be punishments for wearing aluminum or other material than steel?

I for one want to move to riveted chainmail but right now don't have the funds. Moving to plate would be even more cost. Then it would hamper my ability to play.

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Re: What do you wish you could do?

Post by Maelgwyn »

SyrRhys wrote:I want to see ... this "squatting on your heels like a toad" nonsense simply go away along with lime green polyester leisure suits.


Quoted for eminent quotability. And because I agree.
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Post by Oswyn_de_Wulferton »

I kind of agree with Vebrand and Sir Finn (mostly because I am around the same time-period). If we want to hav 14th century stuff, then start a 14th century group, or rewrite Copora. Otherwise, lets stay with what we have. The only problem I have with the Manessa Codex picture Sir Rhys posted, is that you see a definitive shrinking of shields in that time. The standard kite (which is about as long as an Atlantian heater, when you compare where it sits on the body), shrinks down closer to what Sir Vitus is making. A smaller shield starts allowing all sorts of different moves to happen. I am also not sure that the picture isnt some sort of precursor to the I.33 sword/buckler combo. I personally use a big shield all of the time. It stretches from my shoulders to about my knees. And it should be LONGER. I just cant afford to get one or two shields out of a 4x8 sheet of plywood, so I limit them to about 3'6"-3'8". Even if I were mounted, it wouldnt have been a whole lot smaller. All it has to do is not hit the ground as I am riding, and some of them show a shoulder to foot coverage area when mounted.

Do I know having a huge mucking shield is a disadvantage in some ways? Sure. I especially realize it when I fight especially mobile people. They can get around it, or move to a point where it isnt where I want it, and it takes a while for it to get there. And before anyone asks, I am using 1/2" ply with heater hose (which will get upgraded to canvas). If I switch to an aluminum blank, it will have leather on it, to bring it close to the same weight as a wooden canvas one.

What is this whole deal with greaves, and plate as proof? Havent we already established maille was just as effective as plate against the bows that were used when each was popular (as a primary defense)? I dont want to wear greaves cause they arent period for me. And I disagree with Sir Rhys' comment to move up to a time where there is enough armour to be protective. Cause I wouldnt have had any SCA legal armour at all. So I hide it, and that would make one more thing to hide. Shields would grow till they were the right length for infantrymen, and we would be able to better look like a war out there (instead of lots of shins under shields).
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Post by Robert of Canterbury »

Corwin of ArgentLupe wrote:I'd remove CA and spears, add grappling and increase target areas.

Yes, I said spears. I don't care how period it is. It reduces your honor to kill from a distance a man engaged with another, Hell, I'd even reduce pole length to 6' max.


Then surely what you want to change are the rules of engagement, rather than eliminating weapons..

Is there any more graceful sight than two men fighting with pollaxes?

Mine is a length dictated in a period treatise, Michael de Lacey observes "Dr Sydney Anglo writes that '...Pietro Monte, in 1509, specifically states that the axe, up to its hammer's head, should be 'one hand' longer than the height of the man using it,' which would seem a comfortable length for such a weapon. "

And I'm 6'2".
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hmmm....

Post by Corby de la Flamme »

Robert of Canterbury wrote:Is there any more graceful sight than two men fighting with pollaxes?

Well, yes.
Most any lady walking is more graceful. And not just depending on the men. ('Cause some polearm fights look as graceful as sets of tent poles falling on each other.)

But I know what you mean.
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Re: What do you wish you could do?

Post by Corby de la Flamme »

SyrRhys wrote:I want to see ... this "squatting on your heels like a toad" nonsense simply go away along with lime green polyester leisure suits.
So you intend to ban Sir Aggro of Lochac?
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Re: What do you wish you could do?

Post by SyrRhys »

Corby de la Flamme wrote:
SyrRhys wrote:I want to see ... this "squatting on your heels like a toad" nonsense simply go away along with lime green polyester leisure suits.
So you intend to ban Sir Aggro of Lochac?


Why, does he wear lime-green polyester leisure suits?

But I haven't the power to ban anyone... Merely to persuade with sweet, gentle reason!
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The whole art would be lost, because the roar of the impact and the rough strokes make a
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Re: What do you wish you could do?

Post by Corby de la Flamme »

SyrRhys wrote:Why, does he wear lime-green polyester leisure suits?
Alas, pretty close. I couldn't find a picture, which is probably a good thing.
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Post by Corwin of ArgentLupe »

Robert of Canterbury wrote:
Corwin of ArgentLupe wrote:I'd remove CA and spears, add grappling and increase target areas.

Yes, I said spears. I don't care how period it is. It reduces your honor to kill from a distance a man engaged with another, Hell, I'd even reduce pole length to 6' max.


Then surely what you want to change are the rules of engagement, rather than eliminating weapons..

Is there any more graceful sight than two men fighting with pollaxes?

Mine is a length dictated in a period treatise, Michael de Lacey observes "Dr Sydney Anglo writes that '...Pietro Monte, in 1509, specifically states that the axe, up to its hammer's head, should be 'one hand' longer than the height of the man using it,' which would seem a comfortable length for such a weapon. "

And I'm 6'2".


Ah, but I said "man engaged with another", not "2 men". In a melee I would limit it to 6 feet, but for single combat I like your suggestion.

Oh, yeah... and I agree with no more acting out of blows. Forgot that one.
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Re: What do you wish you could do?

Post by SyrRhys »

Corby de la Flamme wrote:
Alas, pretty close. I couldn't find a picture, which is probably a good thing.[/quote]

EEEEEKK! Color me horrified. Better than Jaguar pajamas, however! :twisted:
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Re: What do you wish you could do?

Post by BdeB »

SyrRhys wrote:
Corby de la Flamme wrote:
Alas, pretty close. I couldn't find a picture, which is probably a good thing.


EEEEEKK! Color me horrified. Better than Jaguar pajamas, however! :twisted:[/quote]

He dresses like a Teenage Ninja Turle. Seriously. :shock:
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Post by dukelogan »

oh that guy.... lost my taste for the best of the known world tourney when someone let that fool in. what a disgrace. :roll:

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Post by Brian de Lorne »

[img]http://members.armourarchive.org/brian/Behind.jpg[/img]
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Post by Ulf Edmundarson (Sem H.) »

Helms should be armor as worn. I wear a globose bascinet, Thrusts to the eye slots, sure. To the center of the face, I think not. It would give back a little for having a closed faced helm. But I thought the same thing when I had a bargrill.

Armor as worn means that if I wear full plate, or at least plate over all legal targets, that I cannot be defeated by a fighter who is only authorized weapon and shield unless he thrust me in the eye slot. Not cool at all. Armor as worn agains CA, very cool, but would get complicated.

I love grappling but there is a reason that respectable grappling competitions have weight classes, and we don't have weight classes in the SCA. If we did, then I might welcome grappling.

My vote is Helms as worn.

Good thread Dante!
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