Arrow-proof armour

[Russ Mitchell]

That's most of Eastern Europe, actually. For example, when I say "long bodkin" in my own studies' context, I'm talking about something that's practically an overbuilt sewing needle. Good for poisoning people through mail, and for hunting fur-bearing animals when you don't want to overdamage the hide. (Sewing up hides sucks when you don't have 19th-century glovers' needles and ultrafine thread)

The "regular" bodkin then winds up about as long or slightly longer, than the west euro "long bodkin," and the short bodkin doesn't exist, instead having its place taken by broadheads, chisels, and kites of various descriptions.

[RandallMoffett]

Russ,

I would not be so sure. There are alot of arrowheads classified as bodkins that are more chisel type at some of the main museums and institutions here. I assume they classify it more by the overall foursided and narrowing toward a point as bodkin no matter length, thickness etc.

It is interesting though that all eastern europe has suh a system. Perhaps some of the finds from here in britain you would find useful comparisions.

I have started a collection of photos of different types of 'bodkins' it is more a hobby than collection I suppose.

RPM

[Xnke]

Remember, the energy is dependent on two things:

-One-Half the Mass of projectile.

-Velocity of projectile SQUARED.

Thus, Kinetic Energy = (.5) (Mass) * [(Velocity)*(Velocity)]

So, for the Jousting example:

KE= .5*952.5Kg*9.8m/s^2 (AKA 300lb jouster on 1800lb horse at 22MPH)

KE= 45,739 Joules and some change. Serious Ouch-ness going on here.

The 9mm:

Winchester 147gr SXT used in example

KE=.5*.0095Kg*274m/s^2

KE= 356 Joules. This is to be considered deadly, I'd imagine.

The Arrow.

Quick and Dirty: 1/2 diameter 30" hardwood shaft, about 1/2lb, 18g arrowhead, 300FPS

KE=.5*.275kg*91.5m/s^2

KE= 1,151 Joules. Note that this is more than three times the energy in the 9mm round!

Now, you've got some numbers to play with, and if you have better data than I do, please feel free to correct me. Even if the arrow weighs half as much, it will still have more energy than the 9mm round. It's also a big honkin' arrow!

[Murdock]

"Quick and Dirty: 1/2 diameter 30" hardwood shaft, about 1/2lb, 18g arrowhead, 300FPS "

Thats a ridiculously huge arrow imo

What are the deminsions of a medieval arrow? Not what are the dimisions of what i can make now.

I also reeeaaally don't buy the energy being higher than that of a bullet.

Just a quick web fu check
from http://stevespages.com/page8f9mmluger.html

Firearm: Browning Hi-Power
Barrel Length: 4.75"
Caliber: 9MM Luger
Bullet Diameter: 0.355"
Bullet Weight: 60 grains
Make: RCBD TF/SP
Velocity: 1952 FPS
Recovered Bullet Diameter: Fragmented
Recovered Bullet Weight: Fragmented
Distance From Muzzle: 20'

Firearm: Ruger P89
Barrel Length: 4.5"
Caliber: 9MM Luger
Bullet Diameter: 0.355"
Bullet Weight: 65 grains
Make: Aguila HP IQ
Velocity: 1667 FPS
Recovered Bullet Diameter: Fragmented
Recovered Bullet Weight: 64 grains

Firearm: Ruger P89
Barrel Length: 4.5"
Caliber: 9MM Luger
Bullet Diameter: 0.355"
Bullet Weight: 65 grains
Make: Aguila HP IQ
Velocity: 1701 FPS
Recovered Bullet Diameter: Fragmented
Recovered Bullet Weight: 28.7 grains
Distance From Muzzle: 20'

Firearm: Browning Hi-Power
Barrel Length: 4.75"
Caliber: 9MM Luger
Bullet Diameter: 0.355"
Bullet Weight: 90 grains
Make: Cor-Bon JHP
Velocity: 1557 FPS
Recovered Bullet Diameter: 0.565"
Recovered Bullet Weight: 31.0 grains
Distance From Muzzle: 20'

someone will have to do the math but you've got a range from 1900 ish fps to 1500

So 274 meters per sec seems _really_ low if i'm reading the formula right. Should be more like 500 MPS to 650mps (more or less).


BUT I know that an aluminum road sign will stop a 9mm fmj fired from a car. Don't ask me how.

[Kat_H]

There's a really awesome website that goes into kinetic energy and momentum for a variety of projectiles:

* Light Spear (equivalent to a javelin): 2 pounds, 50 mph, 1" diameter
* Heavy Spear (equivalent to a Roman pilum): 5 pounds, 25 mph, 1 1/2" diameter
* Light Atlatl Dart: 3 ounces, 85 mph, 1/2" diameter
* Heavy Atlatl Dart: 6 ounces, 70 mph, 5/8" diameter
* Primitive Arrow: 500 grains, 165 fps, 3/8" diameter
* Modern Hunting Arrow: 540 grains, 220 fps, 11/32" diameter
* .357 Magnum handgun bullet: 125 grains, 1450 fps, .357" diameter
* .30-06 rifle bullet: 180 grains, 2600 fps, .30" diameter

at http://www.thudscave.com/npaa/articles/howhard.htm
which may be of some use in this discussion.

[Signo]

The numbers itself can't give you the right dimension of the "damage" or penetration properties.
Modern common bullets are made of a lead core encased in a shell, the shell ir required to avoid the accumulation of lead in the gun barrel, and the consequent risk that a bullet will stop into the barrel making the gun explode probably... but this don't care now.
When a lead bullet hit something, the energy that the bullet has in itself is discharged in many ways: part of it is dispersed by the deformation of the bullet itself, part of it may remain in the residual bullet velocity, the rest is transferred to the target.
What we know it that more a bullet deform upon impact, more it transfer energy to the surface of the target and less chance it have to go in deept.
(large wound not so deep). On the other side a rigid bullet, that could be assimilated to an arrow, don't loose energy due plastic deformation or shattering, and more likely will travel deeply into the target. The kind of damage is different, and the way it damage is different. A bullet kill you because the localized energy disrupt tissues and can make them explode at cellular level. An arrow kill you because it can damage important veins and organs and make you bleed to death... a very different way to die!
About the armour, that was what the topic is about, it for sure can boost the chances to survive to arrows and quarrels, for sure they behaved in some way to protect them from arrows and quarrels (for example in case of arrows, avoid to raise your arms to salute your friend that have come to see you , don't forget to lower your visor and avoid to raise your head to see if they are still shooting). Those are just silly things, but can give the idea that a knight on the battlefield is not a standing target, he move accordingly to his experience and training to maximize the protection of his suit.

[Murdock]

There is so much wrong in that post.

"Modern common bullets are made of a lead core"

No most are not lead. Many are alloys of vaiorus soft metals. Everything from Zinc to silver is used in moder ammunition. While lead rounds still exist they are not afaik the favored rounds of military and law enforcemnt agencies. Many military rounds are steel core and i think maybe zinc or something, hollowpoints (favored by law enforcement agencies) have varying metalurgical compositions by brand and type.

" encased in a shell, the shell" It's called a jacket usually copper.

" ir required to avoid the accumulation of lead in the gun barrel, and the consequent risk that a bullet will stop into the barrel making the gun explode probably... but this don't care now. "

Thats part of the reason, but jacketed, eapically copper jacketed rounds move through the barrel faster, spin better and are more accurate.

"When a lead bullet hit something, the energy that the bullet has in itself is discharged in many ways: part of it is dispersed by the deformation of the bullet itself, part of it may remain in the residual bullet velocity, the rest is transferred to the target."

Bullets usually don't deform much until they hit something like bone.

"What we know it that more a bullet deform upon impact, more it transfer energy to the surface of the target and less chance it have to go in deept.
(large wound not so deep)."

Which is kinda the point of hollow points. They dispuse the energy into the target to avoid over penetration. They also create worse wound cannels and entry wounds than FMJ. Which impreves effectivestopping power as well.

"On the other side a rigid bullet, that could be assimilated to an arrow, don't loose energy due plastic deformation or shattering, and more likely will travel deeply into the target."

Yes that's true. Your much more likely to get a through and through straight line puncture wound _and survive_ a FMJ hit. Which would be the most similar to an bodkin point hit.

" The kind of damage is different, and the way it damage is different. A bullet kill you because the localized energy disrupt tissues and can make them explode at cellular level."

No the bullet kills you by blowing big chunks of meat off of you and making holes in your important bits. Like most weapons it puts holes in the body and your orgas fail or you bleed out.

"An arrow kill you because it can damage important veins and organs and make you bleed to death... a very different way to die! "

Umm dude thats exactly what bullets do. It's the exact same way to die.
You hav'nt see a lot of gunshot victims have you? A hole in your chest is a hole in your chest. Doesn't really matter much how it got there.

"About the armour, that was what the topic is about, it for sure can boost the chances to survive to arrows and quarrels, for sure they behaved in some way to protect them from arrows and quarrels (for example in case of arrows, avoid to raise your arms to salute your friend that have come to see you , don't forget to lower your visor and avoid to raise your head to see if they are still shooting). Those are just silly things, but can give the idea that a knight on the battlefield is not a standing target, he move accordingly to his experience and training to maximize the protection of his suit."

Which is the only thing that makes sense inyour whole post.

[Russ Mitchell]

I would not be so sure. There are alot of arrowheads classified as bodkins that are more chisel type at some of the main museums and institutions here.

Believe me, there is absolutely no way you could mistake any kind of bodkin with an e-euro chisel-shaped arrowhead...

I assume they classify it more by the overall foursided and narrowing toward a point as bodkin no matter length, thickness etc.

It is interesting though that all eastern europe has such a system. Perhaps some of the finds from here in britain you would find useful comparisions. I have started a collection of photos of different types of 'bodkins' it is more a hobby than collection I suppose.

I'd be interested in any and all images you've got, especially if you have provenance on them. My own collection is quite small, unfortunately. The E-Euro system tends to be markedly different, especially once you compensate for the tang/socket difference. In western Europe, they largely abandon the tang, b/c it can split the shaft. In the east, they put a shoulder or bolster on it, so that this can't happen, and the end product is superior to a socket for purposes of penetrating armor, b/c the soft iron of the tang will bend while the arrow is biting into a target (straighten it out later with pliers), whereas a slightly off-angle strike with a socket will destroy the shaft.

[Xnke]

The bullet speed used for the calculations was 900fps. This was the advertised speed for the particular bullet used in the equation. it was the first hit returned by Google for "9mm round"

Also, about the large arrow size: the advertised size of the arrow in question was 1/2". if you look back on the first page of this thread, it's mentioned.

But that's just what they're claiming. Apparently, one of their massive, half-inch diameter war arrows does pack more of a punch than many handgun rounds, at least inside of 300 yards or so.

<<Josh Warren

Ok, so you brought more data, and I'll compute for you. Keep in mind, will you, that I did the math with a 147gr bullet, at 900fps the first time.

Browning Hi-Power:

1557 Ft/s = 475 m/s
90gr = .00583 Kilograms

Kinetic energy = (.5)*.00583*(475^2)
KE = 657.6 Joules. Still doesn't top that wicked huge arrow that they advertise.

So Yes, it does appear that the arrow in question, if it's as big as they claim, has more kinetic energy than a 9mm handgun. Let's see how far behind a .30-06 hunting rifle it is, just for fun.

For a 180gr bullet traveling 2600 fps:

KE = (.5)*.011*(792^2)
KE = 3,449 Joules. This is around three times the energy in the arrow.

Again, I'd still not want to be hit with one.

Any Questions? I've posted the formula, and tried my best to show conversions to a few decimal places. The arrow in question still has more energy than a 9mm handgun.

Edited to Clarify: I have no bias in the Armor vs Arrows debate. I'm just trying to provide a clear and accurate view of the energies involved, so that someone with the data to relate energy to armor piercing ability can do so. And because the post attributing the 100KJ to the jouster annoyed the crap out of me. 90+KJ for two jousters, 180 degrees opposed. but enough nitpicking, it's still a shitload of energy to be delivered when someone gets hit with a lance.

[Josh W]

I'm confused; are you saying that the arrow strikes with more joules than the jouster?

EDIT: Never mind. I re-read it. Thanks.

[Strongbow]

At the same time that mass will slow down the speed of the arrow much quicker than something lighter.

Actually, th opposite is true. A heavier arrow will retain more of its original energy at maximum range... momentum and all. A heavier arrow will have less initial velocity thoug... though it will have more energy because heavier arrows tend to be more efficient in accepting the energy stored by the bow.

After seeing Williams work and the the research in "The Great Warbow" I am very impressed with the power of a warbow shooting a 4 oz war arrow.... but very dubious about whether they could penetrate plate armour in the manner you suggest. I think at best it would be a rarity... enough to make a man-at-arms flinch at an arrow storm, but not enough to wipe them out. However, being pelted by all those arrows would be at the least UNCOMFORTABLE. It would be like getting hit with fastball after fastball while advancing on the enemy. Certainly enough to affect morale and fighting spirit, even if it just gave you a couple bruises.

[Strongbow]

"Quick and Dirty: 1/2 diameter 30" hardwood shaft, about 1/2lb, 18g arrowhead, 300FPS "

Thats a ridiculously huge arrow imo

What are the deminsions of a medieval arrow? Not what are the dimisions of what i can make now.

Hard to say for certain. The oldest known arrow is the abbey arrow found in Westminster abbey. It is thought to date from the late 15th century... so just barely "medieval." It is barreled (thickest in the middle) with a mean diameter of a little under a 1/2 inch if memory serves. About 30" long and accounting for desication, probably weighed 4 oz new (including the arrowhead, which appears to have been a modified type 16, NOT a bodkin). That's probably close to a typical medieval war arrow, though we may never know for sure.

[Murdock]

Big diff between 4 oz and half a pound
espically when you extrapolate into ballistics per the above formula.

BUT

If we're using a half inch arrow....

lets use the ballistics for a half inch bullet

Like a .50 AE. or at least close like a .475 webly auto mag or .454 casull

For the .50 AE
"Historical Notes

The .50 Action Express (.50 AE) was developed in 1988 for the IMI Desert Eagle semi-auto pistol imported by Magnum Research, Inc. It is another development by Evan Whildin, then of Action Arms. It was part of a program to upgrade the performance of the semi-auto pistol through new cartridge design. The .50 AE has the same rim diameter, case length and overall length as the .44 Magnum. However, the base diameter is .547 inch, so like the .41 AE the .50 AE has a rebated rim. The reason is so the cartridge can be chambered in the Desert Eagle pistol without making any changes in the basic design. The pistol is already chambered for the .44 Magnum, and by retaining the same rim diameter, the change in caliber to .50 AE will require only a new barrel. This is a very practical approach.

General Comments

The .50 AE uses a .500 inch diameter bullet weighing 325 grains at a muzzle velocity of 1400 fps. The 300 grain bullet at 1400 fps delivers 1414 foot pounds of energy, which makes the .50 AE one of the worlds most powerful pistol cartridges. It is an excellent field cartridge for deer sized animals or as a backup when hunting dangerous game."

from http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/p50ae.html

key point: 500 inch diameter bullet weighing 325 grains at a muzzle velocity of 1400 fps. The 300 grain bullet at 1400 fps delivers 1414 foot pounds of energy