calibration levels by kingdom

audax · Post by **audax** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 6:28 am

Those of you who've traveled about the Knowne World, what kingdom hits hardest? Lightest? Just right? HOw do other kingdoms compare?

I've heard that they hit hard in An Tir and Atlantia, too light in Meridies, but what about Caid, Ansteorra, East, West, etc, etc? Our brothers and sisters in Drachenwald and Lochac seem to get left out sometimes. What's the calibration like there?

Forgive me if all this has been discussed before.

Thanks,

audax

B. Amos · Post by **B. Amos** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:02 am

coming from Caid to Atlantia there is not much difference, some fighters hit like freight trains others leave somthing to be desired. Atlantians do seem to take a stouter blow than Caidians. I have fought many other kingdoms at wars, but I don't think I would find an acurate jugment of there local calibration there.

Jess · Post by **Jess** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:09 pm

Maybe we could create a continuum of calibration.

My experience is limited to only a couple of kingdoms, and beyond the Middle, I have not fought throughout the kingdoms, so it may be that my experiences within other kingdoms are not typical for those kingdoms.

For example, in the Midrealm, our calibration seems to be lighter in central and southern Illinois, increasing as you approach central and northern Indiana, and hardest in Ohio.

I would think from lighter to harder: Meridies, Calontir, Ealdormere, Middle, East

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:26 pm

http://www.sca.org/ti/articles/1994/iss ... Calib.html

According to a survey of over 600 fighters from throughout the Known World*, 80% of all fighters would agree that a "good" killing blow should deliver the ball to a point somewhere between the inner and outer circles.

Blaine de Navarre · Post by **Blaine de Navarre** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 2:12 pm

I am not by any means well-travelled enough to know SCA-wide. Here's what I have seen here on the Left Coast:

Caid gives and takes fairly close to "average"; I haven't generally had a problem anywhere I have travelled.

The West takes substantially higher but doesn't hit that much harder, so a Western fight will generally include a fair number of shots that connect but are agreed by both fighters to be light before someone gets in the rock-crusher.

An Tirians hit like trucks, but take at about the same level as Caidans.

ALL fighters from ALL kingdoms calibrate higher at Estrella, which leads to the paradoxical accusations of thickness on all sides.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 2:49 pm

I have a great number of people from many kingdoms i enjoy fighting.

I have fought
Meridians
Trimerians
Ansteorians
Calontiri
Eldomerianians
Athelmarkers
Middies
Easties
Westies
Atlantians
Lochacian
Glennites
Northshielders
Ciadians
An Tirians
Adevlelters
Drachenwalders

I have fought only a handful of people i felt were unreasonable in their blow acceptence. Some i beat some i did not. I have found though that increasingly i am less concerned with what others are doing than with what i am doing.

Personally i enjoy the Midrealm and it's children's calibration. I love the way they fight here.

Apologies to any one who's kingdom i mispelled.

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 2:54 pm

"ALL fighters from ALL kingdoms calibrate higher at Estrella, which leads to the paradoxical accusations of thickness on all sides."

No way!! A higher calibration for a particular event? NO F**KING WAY!

Broadway · Post by **Broadway** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 3:48 pm

"ALL fighters from ALL kingdoms calibrate higher at Estrella, which leads to the paradoxical accusations of thickness on all sides."

No way!! A higher calibration for a particular event? NO F**KING WAY!

Sometimes I can't tell if you are trying to be harshly sarcastic, or living in blissfull ignorance...

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 3:53 pm

Hey, ya think they hit hard at Estrella.. try going to Pennsic sometime.. some of the folks they have to ship by trailer to Pennsic hit like freight trains.

Blaine de Navarre · Post by **Blaine de Navarre** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 4:21 pm

Maeryk wrote:Hey, ya think they hit hard at Estrella.. try going to Pennsic sometime.. some of the folks they have to ship by trailer to Pennsic hit like freight trains.

I've only been to Pennsic twice, as opposed to 20 or so Burro Creek/Great Desert/Estrellas, so my data set may be skewed, but my experience of Pennsic was that it was downright genteel compared to a normal Estrella.

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 6:56 pm

Blaine de Navarre wrote:
Maeryk wrote:Hey, ya think they hit hard at Estrella.. try going to Pennsic sometime.. some of the folks they have to ship by trailer to Pennsic hit like freight trains.

I've only been to Pennsic twice, as opposed to 20 or so Burro Creek/Great Desert/Estrellas, so my data set may be skewed, but my experience of Pennsic was that it was downright genteel compared to a normal Estrella.

I have about the same number of Pennsics, and only 4 Estrellas, but I feel I agree with the sentiment.

JP

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:00 pm

Jean Paul de Sens wrote:
Blaine de Navarre wrote:
Maeryk wrote:Hey, ya think they hit hard at Estrella.. try going to Pennsic sometime.. some of the folks they have to ship by trailer to Pennsic hit like freight trains.

I've only been to Pennsic twice, as opposed to 20 or so Burro Creek/Great Desert/Estrellas, so my data set may be skewed, but my experience of Pennsic was that it was downright genteel compared to a normal Estrella.

I have about the same number of Pennsics, and only 4 Estrellas, but I feel I agree with the sentiment.

JP

And I've only fought at a couple of Estrellas and a horde of Pennsics.

I'm also inclined to agree that calibration at Estrella is higher. Plus at Pennsic, when someone's gauntlet comes flying off a bridge, there's generally a hold called to see where it came from... :roll:

Gavin

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:19 pm

Alcyoneus wrote:http://www.sca.org/ti/articles/1994/issue110/BlowCalib.html

According to a survey of over 600 fighters from throughout the Known World*, 80% of all fighters would agree that a "good" killing blow should deliver the ball to a point somewhere between the inner and outer circles.

From what I have heard about this experience, there is a distinct problem depending on how you tend to throw the blow. People can snap a blow at the end, and the ball barely rocks in the post, but 95% would have considered it good, or you could follow through completely, smash it out of the circles, and it would normally be considered light. A tool yes, but not without its flaws.

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Mon Jan 01, 2007 11:26 pm

Oswyn_de_Wulferton wrote:
Alcyoneus wrote:http://www.sca.org/ti/articles/1994/issue110/BlowCalib.html

According to a survey of over 600 fighters from throughout the Known World*, 80% of all fighters would agree that a "good" killing blow should deliver the ball to a point somewhere between the inner and outer circles.

From what I have heard about this experience, there is a distinct problem depending on how you tend to throw the blow. People can snap a blow at the end, and the ball barely rocks in the post, but 95% would have considered it good, or you could follow through completely, smash it out of the circles, and it would normally be considered light. A tool yes, but not without its flaws.

Did the test, hit the ball with a "medium force" shot.. watched it land in excessive and bounce out to where my 300 pound squire had driven it with his polearm trying to hit as hard as he could. I have a heavy hand, but not *that* heavy... I follow through on shots, so on the bowling ball I kept pushing it for a long time. Combine that with a heavy sword and you get lots of extra on the ball that doesn't really match up with "impact" as such.

Then I watched Duke Baldar, as he explained why the test wasn't a very good measure. He struck the ball with a light sword, incredible speed and very careful focus. The ball fell off the post, little more. But the sound of the impact was tremendous and one half expected the ball to split in two.

It was a good attempt at a survey of a broad spectrum of the SCA fighting population, and as such a laudible effort. It probably did provide some data that could have been used to make some conclusions about which areas hit harder than others, and a standardized test, even if not very accurate, at least allowed for an equitable comparison.

Gavin

Grimr Hvitulfsson Ulfhamr · Tue Jan 02, 2007 3:55 am

Drachenwald is geographically very big kingdom and therefore the calibration levels vary a lot in different parts. Earlier on our cal. used to be very light but it's been getting higher. Generally, I would say that we are still lighter than e.g. the West.

AarnimetsÃ¤ (Finland) has had a lot of contact with the West kingdom, and we emphasize proper body mechanics, repetitive drills & pell work, so our hitting calibration is probably the highest within the kingdom.

I haven't fought that much with any other kingdoms to get a good overview.

GrimR

Vebrand · Post by **Vebrand** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:07 am

Let's see I have lived in the Atlantia, West, Drachenwald, Meridies/Gleann Abhann, Far West, An Tir, and Atlantia again. Have fought many people from all over. No matter what Kingdom you live in there are people who take lighter and people who take heavier in that Kingdom. Just happens that they are those types. Generally you find those that don't travel a lot and only play in their own group fit into the lighter/heavier group than those that do.

Atlantia is probably the heavier of the Kingdoms as an average but it is not as heavy as rumor would have it. Meridies is the lightest on average and then again the myth of every one fighting with pixie sticks is not true. There are more cultural differences and issues that lead to people feeling that Kingdoms hit/take harder or lighter than the actual fighting. If I were judging the average I would put Meridies at a 6 and Atlantia at a 8 or maybe 8.5 max from 1-10 scale. From when I was there I would put Drachenwald as second lightest and An Tir as next heaviest. Now again this is my opinion/experience and your mileage may vary. The thing I will say is I am only 5'9" and not real heavy and have not had a big issue getting people to call shots in any Kingdom. A good solid is a good solid shot most anywhere.

I will say the hardest two shots I have ever taken were one in Atlantia in the mid 1980s from Sir Aerik and one in Meridies from Duke Boru. Aerik put me vertical before I hit the ground with a two handed mace and Boru with a one handed sword that spun my head.

Vebrand

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:22 pm

Caid has a couple of pockets of really heavy hitters, but has overall average calibration in war. The war vs tournament calibration is impressively different (tournament and singles are significantly lighter, Orkneys and associates excepted).

West has gotten lighter both in throwing and in taking, probably around average now.

An Tir hits hard and takes average, much respect to our friends up north.

Atlantia has a lot of heavy hitters, but the one regular practice I've been to (in Maryland) was much lighter than I am used to from people in that Kingdom -- I was told it's a regional thing.

Atenveldt is about the same level as West now that we've come down.

Easterners tend have good power, but I fought a fairly small sample that tended towards the Ducal level.. some of my Eastern pick-ups at Pennsic were pretty hard, some I had to stop and explain I didn't really hate them, that's just how we fight, and they should consider using more than the wrist. I would say those latter ones are probably exceptions.

Midrealm is pretty average, had some good fights with their knights.

Ealdormere is a bit on the lighter side of things.. probably about Caid singles level.

Can't speak to others.

Estrella is a *way* heavier fight than Pennsic, power-wise.

Oswyn_de_Wulferton · Post by **Oswyn_de_Wulferton** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 5:44 pm

Vebrand wrote:I will say the hardest two shots I have ever taken were one in Atlantia in the mid 1980s from Sir Aerik and one in Meridies from Duke Boru. Aerik put me vertical before I hit the ground with a two handed mace and Boru with a one handed sword that spun my head.

We call that getting a Boru-se (bruise).

Malachiuri · Post by **Malachiuri** » Wed Jan 03, 2007 7:28 pm

Blaine de Navarre wrote:
Maeryk wrote:Hey, ya think they hit hard at Estrella.. try going to Pennsic sometime.. some of the folks they have to ship by trailer to Pennsic hit like freight trains.

I've only been to Pennsic twice, as opposed to 20 or so Burro Creek/Great Desert/Estrellas, so my data set may be skewed, but my experience of Pennsic was that it was downright genteel compared to a normal Estrella.

Ditto that statement big time.

Pennsic is vacation fighting, Estrella is clocking in to do a hard day's work.

Anjouleme · Post by **Anjouleme** » Thu Jan 04, 2007 2:29 pm

BaronMal wrote:Pennsic is vacation fighting, Estrella is clocking in to do a hard day's work.

Nice! I agree, as well. (4 Pennsics, 12 or more Estrellas)

Sixtus_Goetz · Post by **Sixtus_Goetz** » Sun Jan 07, 2007 12:59 am

Estrella I couldn't count the times I got "hammered". Pennsic, only realy got hammered once or twice. Definatly a milder game at Pennsic then Estrella.

I would put Outlands around average with slightly higher for some pockets and with your higher calibur fighters. I will agree with Sir GrimR though, Fins and Swedes tend to hit like freight trains with Germans comming very close.

When I left the U.K. they were fairly light hitting and taking, but my understanding is that has came up to about average now.

Gaston de Vieuxchamps · Tue Jan 09, 2007 4:49 pm

There is generally a lot more variation between individuals than between kingdoms such that it becomes hard to tellwhat a "kingdom norm" is.

In general the top fighters from every kingdom tend to hit pretty hard but what they take does tend to be different from region to region. Depending on culture in some kingdoms the "super elite" tend to take blows harder than the rest where in other kingdoms they take them lighter and in others they define the average.

Hard to make too many generalizations but here are a few:

Meridides on average has the lowest calibration level as a kingdom in the known world, but this is subject to regional as well as individual variation. The regional variation has decreased in the last decade compared to before when Axemore was the land of thunder and Southdowns the land of the magic wand. They've all moved more towards the average it would seem.

Trimaris has more consistency than most kingdom partly because we are so centralized and thus few fighters "only fight locally". Our top fighters also tend to call blows lighter than average for the kingdom, though they don't throw lighter. Trimaris seems to sit somewhere in the middle range with Ansteorra, Outlands, and a few others.

Of those, Outlands seems to be most similar to Trimaris. Ansteorrans are similar when it comes to head blows and body blows but sometimes very different when it comes to leg or arm blows.

Calontir is generally on the low end of that average but have a strong tendency to "gauge up" in wars on certain days. Hard to predict when and where but this may be an artifact due to the inability to pick out particular fighters from the army--the thicker guys might show up at one event and the less thick at others but it's hard for an outsider to tell.

Easterners tend to be very consistent, both in power thrown and power recieved. Baldar and I got a very large sample at the Passage of Three Seas and they were definitely the most consistent. This consistent level was quite high "as a kingdom" but they had very few fighters that went above the average in terms of blows recieved.

Aethelmark was a lot like East. (data also from the Passage)

We had also a large sample of Middle Kingdom, but they seemed the least consistent, especially the knights. They had some of the highest and lowest power in terms of both throwing and recieving but the most elite fighters from the Middle all seemed to fit into the "international standard" quite well.

Atlantians were all over the map. More than other kingdoms they had high level fighters who exceeded the norm on both throwing and calling.

My experience with An Tir is probably not representative (skewed sample) but they seem to throw consistently high power while calling "high average" or "international standard" with a much lower than average number of people that exceed that.

Estrella does seem to have a higher overall level than Pennsic, though I've only been to one Estrella.

Just my two cents worth, of course,
Gaston

LordLokeildson · Post by **LordLokeildson** » Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:01 pm

Hardest ive ever been hit was from a duke in Atlantia (his name escapes me though). It was a beautiful shot and i fully deserved to get crushed on it because 1. i let him through, 2. i asked him for a "crown" fight. Man that bruise was beautiful, and semi-permanent.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:20 am

LordLokeildson wrote:Hardest ive ever been hit was from a duke in Atlantia (his name escapes me though). It was a beautiful shot and i fully deserved to get crushed on it because 1. i let him through, 2. i asked him for a "crown" fight. Man that bruise was beautiful, and semi-permanent.

Logan????? :shock:

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:54 am

where was this? and when?

regards
logan

LordLokeildson wrote:Hardest ive ever been hit was from a duke in Atlantia (his name escapes me though). It was a beautiful shot and i fully deserved to get crushed on it because 1. i let him through, 2. i asked him for a "crown" fight. Man that bruise was beautiful, and semi-permanent.

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:10 am

Remind me never to ask for a "Crown Fight" in Atlantia. :shock:

LordLokeildson · Post by **LordLokeildson** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 2:31 am

It was a pick-up fight after the third field battle at pennsic 33. I still cant recall the name though. If it helps recall anyones memory i was fighting with a small centerboss heater, and was wearing a yellow and black tabbard with reverse porticollises (man i slaughtered the spelling on that one). Heater was gray with a black cross outlined in red. This was before the persona change to viking (now norman, in theory).

Syrfinn · Post by **Syrfinn** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:13 am

Do you remember what the duke was wearing?

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:35 am

we dont really subscribe to this notion that there is a difference between a crown fight, local fight, normal fight, happy fight, etc. we just fight and a fight is a fight. talking tournies of course, not practice.

regards
logan

Aaron wrote:Remind me never to ask for a "Crown Fight" in Atlantia.

Hrogn · Post by **Hrogn** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:46 am

dukelogan wrote:we dont really subscribe to this notion that there is a difference between a crown fight, local fight, normal fight, happy fight, etc. we just fight and a fight is a fight. talking tournies of course, not practice.

regards
logan

You know how sometimes you say that you fight about 10% above the skill of your opponent? If I happened to get lucky enough to meet you at some event someday and asked for a Crown fight, wouldn't you bring your best game and fight above that 10% rule? I hope so, because I would love to do exactly that some day. Good to fight the big dog at full out sometimes. It gives a guy a real example of how much growth there needs to be to decrease that gap.

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:33 pm

my 10% rule only applies to practice, never to tourney. in tourney i bring everything i have every time. the guy in front of me is trying to hit me, im trying to respond the same. if my skill is above his then so be it. so be it regardless of how much higher it might be.

in practice i am not in contest with someone. its not about dominance there. its about testing and learning. so, i go 10% above or below what my partner is bringing. keeps him at his best. not meaning that to sound arrogant but when i fight guys in my peer group (fighting skill-wise) we are always going full tilt. we have to in order to get better. however, fighting at that level against newer guys serves them no good at all.

now, some pick-ups at pennsic or a few fights at practice where a lesser fighter asks for my best..... sure. i agree with you that its cool to taste that kind of fight.

hope that clears up my 10% thingy. :wink:

and anytime we can get together i would be happy to bring whatever you want. so a few full tilt fights are certainly possible.

regards
logan

Hrogn wrote:
dukelogan wrote:we dont really subscribe to this notion that there is a difference between a crown fight, local fight, normal fight, happy fight, etc. we just fight and a fight is a fight. talking tournies of course, not practice.

regards
logan

You know how sometimes you say that you fight about 10% above the skill of your opponent? If I happened to get lucky enough to meet you at some event someday and asked for a Crown fight, wouldn't you bring your best game and fight above that 10% rule? I hope so, because I would love to do exactly that some day. Good to fight the big dog at full out sometimes. It gives a guy a real example of how much growth there needs to be to decrease that gap.

Wulf · Post by **Wulf** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:58 pm

Wish we had the luxury of being able to find fights like that here in Chicago Logan.

Its really odd that for a city asa big as this there are so few fighters.

Blaine de Navarre · Post by **Blaine de Navarre** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:09 pm

This reminds me of a fight I had in practice many years ago. I was firmly convinced that I was THE hot up-and-coming unbelt. So a week or 2 before Crown, the only knight at our regular practice wants to ramp up and asks if I'd mind fighting a few with him all out. I knew he was still better than I was, so didn't expect to dominate, but had this fantasy I could at least hold my own...after several technicolor welts that I didn't even see happen, I was forced to slightly adjust my opinion of my own progress.