Greek Helm

asmiv · Post by **asmiv** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:37 pm

I am ordering a classical greek helm. Right now it does not have a crest on it. Eventually I want to mount a crest on there that can be taken off say before a battle but can be put back on for show or court or what have you. Is there a way to attach a crest to a helm so the you can remove it without haveing any rods or clasps or anything sticking out? I was thinking maybe drilling some holes in the top and mounting some bolts on the bottom of the crest. When I want to have the crest on I put the bolts in the holes and then fasten them with some nuts. If i want the crest off, then i undo the screws and put some sort false rivet or, if I can find some, some bolts with a smooth top to kinda simulate the riveted look. Do you all think this would work and how doable do you think this mini project is. The helm I am going to use is at http://armourandcastings.com/catalog/pr ... tng341vnk2
I am ordering it from beathan. I have heard he is good. What is everybodys experiences with him? Thanks in advance.

MJBlazek · Post by **MJBlazek** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:48 pm

Theres just one problem,

Thats not a Greek Helm. Thats a Barbute, a 15th century helm made to emulate a greek helm.

If you're not going for accuracy, and don't get me wrong I don't go for accuracy but then again I'm not in the SCA I'm a Ren Faire actor, but as i was saying, If you are going for accuracy then you should find a true Corinthian helm.

But other than that Beathan is great!

Matt

asmiv · Post by **asmiv** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:51 pm

It is greek enough for my taste. The only difference I personally can tell is that the top of this one does not look... phallic in nature

Thomas H · Post by **Thomas H** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 4:20 pm

I'll be straight, if you want a Greek helmet, that's wrong, not close, just straight out wrong. Having a crest that isn't worn into battle or what have you seems pretty damn pointless. The shaping is totally different, not even close, no siree bob. Having a crest on a pretty run of the mill Babute seems odd too.

As far as things go, you could do worse than this:
http://www.aurorahistoryboutique.com/ahb.cfm?a=A000002

Eyvandr · Post by **Eyvandr** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 7:12 pm

Brand or Dirk are the two guys to talk to if you really want a corinthian.

And if your interested in a crest... then I know a good person to talk to as well.

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 8:35 pm

Generalizations don't cut it here. This is a forum for developing knowledge about armour, not making ho-hum excuses to buy a custom helmet that's wrong when you could get a helmet that's right for a similar price, if you tried.

Here's some examples of Greek Corinthian helmets as well as a couple of other Greek styles, including an Illyrian and a Pylos helmet. These are originals, by the way.

And here are some examples of Greek helmets made by modern armourers, which gives you no excuse to order a 15th century AD Italian styled barbute in one's stead.

-By Sir Brand. Would cost over $1,000 as shown. Base price of $400 for plain, in mild steel. Has the right shape.

[img]http://members.aol.com/annoratheaxe/corsca1.jpg[/img]
-By Joe Piela of The Lonely Mountain Forge. This fine example would cost nearly $1,000 as well, but could be done in simplified form, I'm sure.

Those are two examples I can think of off of the top of my head. If you can't afford those by any means, guess what?

Beathan works wonders with custom orders over at Armourandcastings.com Show him one of the pictures of an original Greek helmet like the ones I posted above, and he'll make it. I guarentee you. I've worked with him the same way, and he's got a good eye, especially for the price he puts down!

-Gregory-

Syrfinn · Post by **Syrfinn** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 9:01 pm

Aye, if your going to do a greek personna, then do it right.

As someone already stated, Brand or Dirk, both make excellent corinthians.

T. Finkas · Post by **T. Finkas** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:19 pm

I agree. This is worth doing right. I urge you to get a proper Greek pattern helmet such as the others suggested. There are at least 6-7 armorers out there doing nice SCA versions. And there are at least 2 other artisans that make nice crests---also designed for SCA combat.

Armorers who make
SCA Greek pattern helmets:

Dirk Lancaster/Dirk's Metal Works
West Coast Armoury/Brand Lancaster - www.westcoastarmoury.com
James River Armoury - www.jamesriverarmoury.com
White Mountain Armoury - www.whitemountainarmoury.com
DarkHeart Armoury - http://www.darkheartarmoury.com/
Creation Time/Alan Baudree - http://creationtime.com/
Knotwolf - www.knotwolf.com
Ice Falcon Armoury - www.icefalcon.com
Roman Quartemaster - www.rlqm.com
and there's probably more

Makers of SCA combat-worthy Greek Crests:
Gunther of Orkney
Eyvandr

---

Cheers,
Tim

Tascius · Post by **Tascius** » Tue Jan 16, 2007 10:27 pm

While the shape is not perfect this helm is nearer to what you want for just under $200
http://www.rlqm.com/sca_corinth_b.html

asmiv · Post by **asmiv** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:18 am

well, after a bit of reconsideration and talking it over with an armor friend of mine, I decided that the period helms for the greeks just wasnt going to work for I was looking for. I am new to the armoring world so you all will have to forgive my mistakes. For the moment I think I am going to try and switch over to a roman gladiator persona. any advice or suggestions on that. I now a lot of the gladiators didnt have the standard roman helm that you see floating around everywhere. does anyone know where i might be able to purchase one or find patterns for them? Thank you all for clearing that up for me

asmiv · Post by **asmiv** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:20 am

I would especially like to get my hands on a Thracian if at all possible. Thanks

T. Finkas · Post by **T. Finkas** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:22 am

Brand Lancaster makes a spectacular gladiator helmet:
http://www.westcoastarmoury.com/images/ ... diator.jpg

Both Brand and Dirk make Thracians. And lots of other armorers --could-- make them as well, if you inquired.

Check out this thread:
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... ight=greek

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:29 am

Tim,

I'm going to assume he's asking about the typical Thracian/Phyrgian helm of the 5th-4th centuries, considering he's on about Greek stuff. That'd rule the "Thracian" gladiator helmet out, and Dirk's stuff is a bit to artistically licensed, in my opinion.

Asmiv,

Thacian helmets will get expensive. May we ask how much you are willing to invest in your helmet? That will help us to point you in the right direction. I know of Thracian helmets from anywhere between $300 and $2,000. But their purposes and qualities vary greatly, of course!

-Gregory-

asmiv · Post by **asmiv** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:08 am

something like this. http://depthome.brooklyn.cuny.edu/class ... urhelm.jpg . I am thinking about going as a murmillo, but I have a bit of a problem. Most gladiators didnt wear body armor, or well anything on top. for decency sake i am not going to go out on the field without some covering on. Is there some way that I can make a muscalata that would look like real skin. Maybe leather would work. have any of you ever encountered this?

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:31 am

Well, Tim...

Glad we didn't bet on that! :shock:

I'll share some original gladiator helmet pictures tomorrow, if no one beats me to the stash.

-Gregory-

asmiv · Post by **asmiv** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 1:37 am

even if they do beat you, send em in anyway. thanks again for your help with this and the greek thing

T. Finkas · Post by **T. Finkas** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 2:17 am

There was a guy at last Pennsic that fought in gladiator gear. I think it was mostly leather. It was a very good impression, and I got the idea that the dude was a very well known (and skilled) fighter.

rob(in) · Post by **rob(in)** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 6:51 am

T. Finkas wrote:There was a guy at last Pennsic that fought in gladiator gear. I think it was mostly leather. It was a very good impression, and I got the idea that the dude was a very well known (and skilled) fighter.

there was Sir Balin from the East. he's a medium height wiry guy. he wore a gladiator helm and a red leather manica w/ rings on it. not to mention his man-diaper (subligaculum) and greaves. fought spear with Duke Darius and crew most of the time. he usually does 14th c., but i heard he lost a bet with Darius.

also, early provocators wore the standard infantry helm, which later evolved into a full face with pierced occulars. mine, by Dirk:

which i still have pad out...urg.

there was also a 'bell' variant, which may be a provincial variant:

asmiv · Post by **asmiv** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 4:06 pm

with the price, if it on a $300 to a $2000 scale i am definantly more of the 300 side. You see i am a poor college student and $300 is just about my spending money for a month.

T. Finkas · Post by **T. Finkas** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 5:07 pm

Freakin cool helmet, Rob. What will you wear with it?

rob(in) · Post by **rob(in)** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:15 pm

T. Finkas wrote:Freakin cool helmet, Rob. What will you wear with it?

barechested, 2oz. leather manica over hidden elbow, subligaculum, wide leather belt to meet kidney requirements, gorget, greaves. smallish scutum (likely around 24x36).

i was really inspired when i discovered the Ars Dimicandi videos.

all in all, much more than i wear now.....

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:45 pm

Rob, I know I've mentioned it over on the Bronze Age Center... But I wanted to remind you that you're insane! :shock:

-Gregory-

rob(in) · Post by **rob(in)** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 7:52 pm

Gregory J. Liebau wrote:Rob, I know I've mentioned it over on the Bronze Age Center... But I wanted to remind you that you're insane!

-Gregory-

it's a thing.

when i started SCA heavy 15 years ago i wore a 70# kit. time passes, pieces come off and my defense got better.

i also do Dogbrothers rattan combat, which is decidedly more nasty. the SCA is where i come to relax.

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:20 pm

Tuchux? I'm assuming that's what you mean by "Dog Brothers" but I can't be quite sure... If so, I now understand a bit better how you handle it!

That's slick.

-Gregory-

rob(in) · Post by **rob(in)** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:35 pm

Gregory J. Liebau wrote:Tuchux? I'm assuming that's what you mean by "Dog Brothers" but I can't be quite sure... If so, I now understand a bit better how you handle it! That's slick.

-Gregory-

not quite. see dogbrothers.com . no holds barred rattan while wearing a fencing mask.

Tascius · Post by **Tascius** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:40 pm

I think he means this rather than Tuchux

http://dogbrothers.com/

It does rather up the ante :twisted:

Blaine de Navarre · Post by **Blaine de Navarre** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:40 pm

Nope, Greg, he means these guys: http://www.dogbrothers.com/gallery/main.php

I wish I'd heard of these guys when I was young and still had brass balls...hell, I may just apply a little brasso & give it a try anyway.

rob(in) · Post by **rob(in)** » Wed Jan 17, 2007 8:47 pm

when i first learned the difference between 'hitting' and 'winning':

[img]http://www.dogbrothers.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1206&g2_serialNumber=2[/img]

Gerhard von Liebau · Post by **Gerhard von Liebau** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:25 am

Oh, Lordy.

Yeah, that makes Tuchux look kiddish, even. Insane. Very insane.

-Gregory-

Primvs Pavlvs · Post by **Primvs Pavlvs** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 12:52 pm

rob(in) wrote:when i first learned the difference between 'hitting' and 'winning':

[img]http://www.dogbrothers.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1206&g2_serialNumber=2[/img]

And thats why I say God Bless Sam Colt!

rob(in) · Post by **rob(in)** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 1:41 pm

Primvs Pavlvs wrote:And thats why I say God Bless Sam Colt!

and John Moses Browning, amen and pass the biscuits!

T. Finkas · Post by **T. Finkas** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:16 pm

That guy needs a helmet!

rob(in) · Post by **rob(in)** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 2:30 pm

T. Finkas wrote:That guy needs a helmet!

thats me.

and the only thing you're allowed to wear for Dogbrothers is a fencing mask, which is considered disposable.

that head shot was a trade for breaking my opponent's radius. then he almost choked me out with his good arm.