Brain Damage, NFL, SCA and suicide

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 7:06 pm

Good Morrow,

My stainless steel armet is of excellent construction and the padding is the best available karate helmet, so I rarely worried about brain damage. Often I can't even feel a shot.

But this article on brain damage, NFL and suicide got me thinking.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=a ... &type=lgns

Have we had suicides in the SCA in our long term fighters? Now for the uber-dukes this might not be an issue as they rarely if ever get hit. But for others this might be a concern.

Have you heard of any suicides of heavy fighters in the SCA?

This is a serious subject so I'm taking off my jesters cap and putting my medical officer hat on.

Cet · Post by **Cet** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:01 pm

Not much science in that article.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:36 pm

Have we had suicides in the SCA in our long term fighters? Now for the uber-dukes this might not be an issue as they rarely if ever get hit. But for others this might be a concern.

For starters, they didn't get to be super dukes without getting hit. And getting hit a LOT.

Second, very few SCA "superdukes" had the spectre of multi-million dollar careers hitting people with sticks staring them in the face, only to eventually not be the 1 in 1000 who gets to that level of stardom and plays for years.

I think theres a buttload more evidence of psychological pressure and unstable people, than there is brain trauma leading to suicide.

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:12 am

Clinically speaking, I would put more research into the effects of blood clotting from deep leg bruises becoming pulmonary or coronary or even cerebral emboli. That combined with arterio- or atheroschlerosis (especially secondary to obesity - please no one get offended, this is a reality not a dig) can cause deadly lung clots, heart attacks and strokes (respectively).

For example, someone who fights their butt off at SCA practice for hours then goes and sits at a computer for a week or other sedentary activity levels, could be at great risk of a blood clotting emergency.

In the USMC our officers always told us (corpsmen) not to come to them with a problem unless we also had a solution. In this instance it is:

Chewable Baby Aspirin, 81mg, once daily, can significantly reduce the risk of blood clotting emergencies. Yes there is ample clinical evidence of the efficacy of this. Bruised legs should be exercised to increase blood flow/exchange.

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 9:26 am

I think I'd be more concerned with the long term effects from repeated blows to the head than blood cloting.I've read that Muhammed Ali's problems may stem in part from getting his brains rattled to many times. And he was good, never really got his alot until towards the end..Otto

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:10 am

Trystan of Anglesey wrote:Chewable Baby Aspirin, 81mg, once daily, can significantly reduce the risk of blood clotting emergencies. Yes there is ample clinical evidence of the efficacy of this. Bruised legs should be exercised to increase blood flow/exchange.

You said it brother! Chewable aspirin is an almost constant companion for me, and not because of pain but rather to keep my clots minimal.

Good armour (including tassets), exercise, medication and diet help do the rest.

Syrfinn · Post by **Syrfinn** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:19 am

Ok, maybe is rare instances, guys have been hit, with the head trauma boxers and nfl guys have. But I would find that severly to the rare occurence than the norm.

I might of gotten maybe 2 concussions thru out the 18 years of playing this game. But I know I have had at least 3 concussions from playing football, and if I remember right 2 concussions from doing full contact martial arts sparring. And those I only did for 7 years.

Now granted, everyone of those times, never stopped doing what I was doing, but knew that I had a headache that only close to twice the dosage would get rid of, and was sensitive to light after words for a couple of days.

I really sont think this is a major problem for what we do. We are not, on normal hitting guys with full out force, and if we are, its with a stick that not most of our body weight is behind.

Plus the fact, a concussion is from bruising of the brain, cause you took a hard enough hit, to make your brain flop around in your head, if I remember right. Which usually comes from a drastic change of direction, causing the brain to slam up against your skull. We really dont play that hard to cause it to happen. Oh I am sure it does on rare occassions, but I can only think of 1 time, where I might of gotten hit that hard, and it wasnt from the hit, it was cause I was going full tilt into it.

Like someone else said. I actually would worry more about the bloodclot issue, cause I have seen several, and have recieved several really bad bruises, that tend to stick around on people for more than a week. Luckily, my body has always recovered quickly from that stuff, and a bruise rarely stayed on me for more than 2 days.

Hrogn · Post by **Hrogn** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:19 am

As far as a professional sport that is prone to concussions, I'd go hockey rather than football. Most concussions are caused by the head hitting the ground. Both football and hockey are hardhitting so not much difference there. But ice is harder than the football field and football helmets are more protective than hockey helmets. And football players actually do up their chinstraps. Lots of concussions in hockey.

As a side note, I don't think there are many concussions at all in the SCA.

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:27 am

as a (former) boxer let me just add that never, ever, not once, does it make sense to compare the blows we take to our helmets and the blows we boxers take/took to our heads. the power comparison is laughable at best. the hardest spear thrust to the chin in this sport pales in comparison to a straight jab.

football too to the most extent. i got rocked a few times when i played football. i think that was because of the lack of weight a football helmet has (compared to our double digit steel buckets) and the speed you travel before impact (and that of your target too). only got kocked silly once in football and that was from a knee to the helmet as i tried tackling a running back.

regards
logan

Blackoak · Post by **Blackoak** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:27 am

While some guys can throw very hard shots to the head, I don't think anyone hits like a 300lb professional football player does when he hits you with his BODY.

Having been an ER nurse for years, I think Trystan's comment is the bigger concern.

Uric

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:37 am

Otto von Teich wrote:I think I'd be more concerned with the long term effects from repeated blows to the head than blood cloting.I've read that Muhammed Ali's problems may stem in part from getting his brains rattled to many times. And he was good, never really got his alot until towards the end..Otto

Well then, I shall counter with my pet theory that it is the repeatitive-heat-stress-injury that causes fighter-drain-brammage in SCAdian heavies, not the clobberings. Or perhaps a cumulative effect? Once one's internal body temp goes over 105F, rapid and permanent brain damage ensues. Over 107 and it is rapid, catastrophic and frequently fatal.

My theory is more geared towards repetitive low-grade heat-stress. Like 102F-103F, but twice a week for months on end. Also possibly compounded by re-breathing warmed CO2 within the helmet (this can cause respiratory acidosis) and repetitive-low-grade head trauma. Again, yes, I am especially looking at obese fighters here...sorry y'all...sad, but true... :sad:

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:43 am

Aaron wrote:
Trystan of Anglesey wrote:Chewable Baby Aspirin, 81mg, once daily, can significantly reduce the risk of blood clotting emergencies. Yes there is ample clinical evidence of the efficacy of this. Bruised legs should be exercised to increase blood flow/exchange.

You said it brother! Chewable aspirin is an almost constant companion for me, and not because of pain but rather to keep my clots minimal.

Good armour (including tassets), exercise, medication and diet help do the rest.

I take one every day. I am 44 years old and still kickin' it witcha.

Although I would caution that the ASA is not necessary when one imbibes ETOH. That can thin the blood too much.

Aspirin really is one of the Four Great Wonder Drugs of Mankind.

Ken Mondschein · Post by **Ken Mondschein** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:48 am

Mr. OfAnglesey has an interesting point, but I think you'd see symptoms of heat stroke if that was the case.

I think the real danger is improper biomechanics and stress on joints. Many old fighters have completely wrecked knees, backs, elbows, and wrists.

-Ken

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 10:57 am

Low grade heat-stress has subtle symptoms. Easily missed. I never used the word "stroke".

It also just occurred to me that all of this (especially keto-acidosis) can be exacerbated by "thickened blood" due to dehydration, a common condition of heavy fighters.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:08 am

I have to agree with Logan...the difference in how we get hit with a 3 pound flexable stick vs. getting hit in the frontal lobe by the helmet of a 300 pound person over and over is just so radically different.

And I'd bet that a lineman gets hit in the head more times in a week of practice and a game than we get hit in months and months of fighting.

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:16 am

Over 107 and it is rapid, catastrophic and frequently fatal.

Umm.. or not.. as one who spiked incredibly high fevers.. that isn't always true.

Course, I _CAN_ tell you that no one is going to not know INSTANTLY if you are at that temp just by looking at you.. the hallucinations and lack of motor control are rather.. vividly obvious.

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:26 am

On a slightly unrelated note.. Aaron, you scared me with that title . :shock:

Jonny Deuteronomy · Post by **Jonny Deuteronomy** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 12:02 pm

Maeryk wrote:
Over 107 and it is rapid, catastrophic and frequently fatal.

Umm.. or not.. as one who spiked incredibly high fevers.. that isn't always true.

Course, I _CAN_ tell you that no one is going to not know INSTANTLY if you are at that temp just by looking at you.. the hallucinations and lack of motor control are rather.. vividly obvious.

Infection or sepsis fevers run a bit different than heat-stress brought on by excercising in say temps over 100F and humidity 90+. What we call on the base a "black flag day" == no outdors PT or heavy activity.

The bright red skin (lobstery), fixed pupils and unconsciousness with suppressed vital signs are what I am talking about. Infectious or sepsis fevers tend to have a slower onset so the body has more time to adjust.

For example, infectious fevers are typically treated with a series of relatively brief tepid baths, to back them off slowly to prevent "chill reactions" whereas catastrophic and total "heat stroke" is treated with total immersion in baby pools full of ice water and refrigerated bilateral IV fluid boluses, rinse and repeat until they can tell you their mama's maiden name. We refrigerate them inside and out, (stirred not shaken). At least that's how we did it when I worked at TBS/OCS at Quantico and the DIs tried to break the noobs with all-day-every-day-in-all-conditions PT, including red and black flag days. I ruined many a uniform there with salt stains of my own and I wasn't even running with them that often.

These kids were all college-aged and the fittest of their demographic when they show up and still fall out like wooden soldiers in droves. Imagine an overweight, sedentary middle-aged weekend warrior now under those conditions... :sad:

... a message to you all because I care deeply about all of you my brothers-and-sisters-in-cotte. :oops:

::aw shucks::

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:10 pm

" as a (former) boxer let me just add that never, ever, not once, does it make sense to compare the blows we take to our helmets and the blows we boxers take/took to our heads. the power comparison is laughable at best. the hardest spear thrust to the chin in this sport pales in comparison to a straight jab."

Absofrigginglutely

In my limited and painfull "carrer" doing Full contact MA and NHB fighting i will second that.

The shots we get to the bod and head feel like love taps compared to shin kicks and elbows and such from a motivated hard trained and physically fit combatant, espically when all your wearing is white pajamas or shorts.

Course some Dukes come close( finally got what i'd call a dent in my HE legs last night from Corin) Still nothing close to Thia style leg kicks.

I love armour.

As for players and suicide, many may be hyper competative and with their bodies failing they may feel like life is not worth living. That and we know that more and more pro and college atheletes are taking Steriods and such. Mood swings are associated with their over use.

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:35 pm

shhhhhhh dont mention how hard elbows are. it might ruin our foolish sems dreams of their rampant fragility! :shock:

and im not even talking david loiseau kinda elbows.

regards
logan

Murdock wrote:" as a (former) boxer let me just add that never, ever, not once, does it make sense to compare the blows we take to our helmets and the blows we boxers take/took to our heads. the power comparison is laughable at best. the hardest spear thrust to the chin in this sport pales in comparison to a straight jab."

Absofrigginglutely

In my limited and painfull "carrer" doing Full contact MA and NHB fighting i will second that.

The shots we get to the bod and head feel like love taps compared to shin kicks and elbows and such from a motivated hard trained and physically fit combatant, espically when all your wearing is white pajamas or shorts.

Course some Dukes come close( finally got what i'd call a dent in my HE legs last night from Corin) Still nothing close to Thia style leg kicks.

I love armour.

As for players and suicide, many may be hyper competative and with their bodies failing they may feel like life is not worth living. That and we know that more and more pro and college atheletes are taking Steriods and such. Mood swings are associated with their over use.

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:46 pm

I still have the scars at the corners of my eyes to remeber elbows by.

I had my scalp opened by one, Holy shit that stung. Espically later when the adrenilin was wearing off and the sweat and mat grime was all getting in it.

It just burned and bled. Everything on the head bleeds alot though, but the scalp just seems to not wanna stop.

mordreth · Post by **mordreth** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:46 pm

Otto von Teich wrote:I think I'd be more concerned with the long term effects from repeated blows to the head than blood cloting.I've read that Muhammed Ali's problems may stem in part from getting his brains rattled to many times. And he was good, never really got his alot until towards the end..Otto

He was never the same after fighting Chuck (they Bayonne Bleeder) Wepner - Ali won on a decision and spent about a week in the hospital Wepner lost on decision and was working his liquor sales route two days later.
And I will always think the fight scene from Rocky I owes royalty payments to Ali/Wepner for the coreography

Ken Mondschein · Post by **Ken Mondschein** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:49 pm

Murdock wrote:" As for players and suicide, many may be hyper competative and with their bodies failing they may feel like life is not worth living.

Remember Ajax in the Illiad...

Mord · Post by **Mord** » Fri Jan 19, 2007 2:38 pm

This is one tragic example.

How many retired pro-football players even suffer from depression? And how many of those who do can connect their depression to brain damage?

OTOH, I intend to take a good look at the padding in my helmet. I do this anyway every couple of years.

Mord.

rhys · Post by **rhys** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:10 am

[

OTOH, I intend to take a good look at the padding in my helmet. I do this anyway every couple of years.

Mord.[/quote]

Every couple of years? :shock:

I change mine at least once a year no matter how much or how little I fight.

I think alot of concussions happen in the SCA come from high speed contact with the ground. I'm pretty sure I've had a few in my SCA career.

dukelogan · Post by **dukelogan** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 1:33 am

same padding (one layer of that blue crap for camping from wal-mart) thats been there for 7+ years. i have a helm. a real helm. a safe helm. thanks.....

logan

rhys · Post by **rhys** » Sat Jan 20, 2007 11:59 pm

dukelogan wrote:same padding (one layer of that blue crap for camping from wal-mart) thats been there for 7+ years. i have a helm. a real helm. a safe helm. thanks.....

logan

I have real helm too. metal and everything. I guess the desert heat tears down padding either that or its my sweat.