Looking for a Woodworking Project

Zouave_Capt · Post by **Zouave_Capt** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:37 pm

I am crossposting this from the Classifieds section, as I think it fits here as well... Sorry to those of you who are reading both places.

Hello everyone. I'm looking for a woodworking project to work on over the next few months, and I'm trying to find something that isn't readily available at a reasonable price at the moment. I'm finishing up a pair of trestle tables at the moment, and I'm unsure of what I want to do next, so if there is something that you've been trying to get made for a while now, let me know. Any period documentation you have will help in completing the project. This isn't necessarily something I'll be selling (except to the person whose idea I pick, if they want it), but if you're interested in commissioning a specific project, I'm open to discussing it, feel free to PM me. There isn't a whole lot I can't do in my shop right now, so bring on the ideas and let me know what you've been dying to see, but haven't been able to find someone to make it yet.

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 7:09 pm

Well it probably isn't a "few months" project, more like a few hours, but SOMEPLACE around here I have an illumination that has a 4 armed wooden chandelier in the upper left corner. My plan was to make a tent safe version that could be disassembled for transport and use battery opperated candles for light. or easily swap out for real candles when possible. You could probably also do a floor standing candelabra just as easily. If you don't get any other good ideas it might be fun to knock out a few just to add to the ambiance of an event or campsite.

Sean

Zouave_Capt · Post by **Zouave_Capt** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:13 am

I have several excellent pictures of 15th century candlestands that I plan on making once my friend and I get our forge up and running and I get a little experience in blacksmithing. I think I know what you're talking about as far as the candle holder with the crossed planks of wood, I've seen a picture of that somewhere, though I don't recall where off the top of my head. Out here in the West, no open flames are allowed, so I'm going to be trying out a way to make a candlestick that will have the flame enclosed somehow, probably with something equivalent to a hurricane lamp glass. If you do manage to track down that illumination, I'd love to see it.

In other news, I just found a book through World Cat that I requested through ILL titled "The Depiction of Architecture and Furniture in Medieval French Manuscript Illumination". The book was published just last year, but I was wondering if anyone has seen and/or read it?

Does anyone have any other books they'd recommend? I've already checked out Medieval Furniture, Mediaeval Craftsmen and Mechanick Exercises (which is a little late-period, but has some interested woodcuts from earlier sources as well) and have a few more books coming on ILL over the next two weeks if all goes well.

Hubert · Post by **Hubert** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:09 pm

Might be straying a little, but look for a book called Master Pieces, it's a number of furniture pieces made from paintings, many of them within the period of 1300 - 1700.

edit: just looked it up on Amazon the title is, I believe Master Pieces: making furniture from paintings but it was hard to tell as their entry is very short. I'll double check when I get home tonight as I own the book in question.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:31 pm

Zouave_Capt wrote:I am crossposting this from the Classifieds section, as I think it fits here as well... Sorry to those of you who are reading both places.

Hello everyone. I'm looking for a woodworking project to work on over the next few months, and I'm trying to find something that isn't readily available at a reasonable price at the moment. I'm finishing up a pair of trestle tables at the moment,

A wooden bucket....

Then give me the plans so I can make one.... :shock:

Zouave_Capt · Post by **Zouave_Capt** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:11 pm

Do you have a wood preference for the bucket? I know oak was widely used for barrels and buckets, but I suspect there are other cheaper alternatives that would work equally well.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:44 am

Zouave_Capt wrote:Do you have a wood preference for the bucket? I know oak was widely used for barrels and buckets, but I suspect there are other cheaper alternatives that would work equally well.

That is actually something I have been tossing around, what woods work well.

Theoretically I would think the harder woods that have smaller grains would work better in a wooden bucket. However, since traditionally the wooden bucket was not sealed, the allowing of the wood to swell and expand being the sealant, a softer wood with a more open grain may be better.

For a utility item like a bucket, I would not go overboard on material. I don't think they used the finest grain woods medievally so I don't think one should use them today. Unless of course you are trying to make a nice display piece.

I was planning trying to put on together out of demensional pine.

Zouave_Capt · Post by **Zouave_Capt** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:49 am

Pine would work, but I've never been a big fan of the pine we get out here in California. Cedar is actually a commonly used bucket material because of its rot-resistant properties, from what I understand. Red Oak is not expensive at all and would probably do a good job, white oak would be excellent, but it costs almost twice as much. I'm going to check what woods I can order through my work and see what the prices are. I think if I did an initial run, I'd probably go with pine to get the fit right, then transfer to a higher quality wood once I figured out the process.

Also, I would suspect that buckets would actually be well-fitted and very nearly sealed. If you do a decent job of fitting the slats, it should be watertight from the time you put bands on it. To me, its a sign of poor craftsmanship if it isn't. A cooper's reputation rests on how well his items fit together, and with the amount of experience they had, nothing less than a tight fit would probably be acceptable.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:55 pm

thats kind of what I was thinking as well. But I am nod sure about Cedar. It would make for a nice looking bucket, but it is so fragrant that I would worry about that putting off flavors into the water.

You're right about the tight fit. I just remembered a show I saw about casks and whiskey. They are water tight from the get go.

The cooper on the show did not heat up his bands, he simply had them pre-riveted together, and then hammered them on tight. That is what I was planning on doing.

Jeff J · Post by **Jeff J** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:43 pm

From what I've seen, buckets don't need to be tight. In fact, for some woods I can see a problem if they are. The wood in an over-tight bucket swells and may warp or burst when it soaks up water. Oak is documented and popular because it tends not to swell much. As for cost - you'd be putting how many hours of work into this? Certainly enough to justify a little additional materials cost. You might even consider going with quarter-sawn because it may be better at not warping. This gets wet a lot - ya? Before committing to something like this, a little research may be helpful. You can buy actual instructions on how to make one here:

http://www.beaverbuckets.com/JJs_catalog.htm

Here's a website with a depiction of a crossed chandelier and an interpretation of it:

http://www.medievalwood.org/charles/chand.htm

He has several plans you may find of interest.

Zouave_Capt · Post by **Zouave_Capt** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:58 pm

That's why some woods are poor choices for buckets. I got to speak with the coopers at Williamsburg for some time when I was there last year, and their buckets were very well made. You are correct that some woods will burst if they are made tight and then allowed to get extremely wet. The problem I have with that is that you will destroy your wood by constantly drying it out and soaking it again. I just can't see a craftsman building a bucket loose under the assumption that it would swell when they could just as easily build a tight bucket, seal it with wax or varnish or laquer, and not have to worry about it ever swelling or shrinking....

To me, it seems kind of like building a ship and then saying "Oh, it'll swell up once we launch it."

But as you said, for some woods, it can be a problem if they're tight. I would suspect that you'll find little existing documentation for the period use of those woods for buckets.

Thank you for the links, by the way. :-)

I'm going to go check them out now. I've been to Beaver Buckets before, they have nice products from what I've seen.

Zouave_Capt · Post by **Zouave_Capt** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:03 pm

InsaneIrish wrote:thats kind of what I was thinking as well. But I am nod sure about Cedar. It would make for a nice looking bucket, but it is so fragrant that I would worry about that putting off flavors into the water.

There are many types of cedar, including a lot that aren't fragrant. I don't think it would be an issue, though, especially if the bucket is treated with some kind of varnish or wax on the interior.

Jeff J · Post by **Jeff J** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:14 pm

To design and select materials to swell or not to swell depends on the application, I suppose. Buckets would be used and abused on a frequent basis. Many applications, like well buckets, you'd expect the bucket to be almost continuously wet, taking physical abuse and getting no maintenance or care, so no amount of sealers are going to work for long. I'd think they'd make one to stay wet and leave it down the well.

All conjecture on my part.

Hubert · Post by **Hubert** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:38 pm

Zouave_Capt wrote: Red Oak is not expensive at all and would probably do a good job, white oak would be excellent, but it costs almost twice as much. I'm going to check what woods I can order through my work and see what the prices are. I think if I did an initial run, I'd probably go with pine to get the fit right, then transfer to a higher quality wood once I figured out the process.

Red oak doesn't hold water well, due to the way it's fibers are built. Water retention oaks are white (not much more expensive than red at a real wood store) amd english/european oak. That's why they don't make wine barrels out of red oak, it's a sieve.

Thomas Powers · Post by **Thomas Powers** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:13 pm

As he said *NOT* red Oak! the pores go all the way through. One of my woodworking books has a picture of a shaved piece of red oak immersed in water and they are blowing air through it and you can see the bubbles coming off the shaved edge.

Wet cooperage was expected to be kept damp---why pay for something you are not using? They were *NOT* coated with expensive materials.

And ships *WERE* expected to leak quite a bit when they were first launched until they swelled up

Perhaps you should do some more research on traditional wood working practices: The WoodWrights Shop series by Roy Underhill is one place to start as well as "HandMade" and "Country Woodcraft" by Drew Langsner and "The Forgotton Arts and Crafts" by John Seymour. (Handmade and TFA&C have sections on coopering)

Due to the fact that buckets did tend to end up in the bottom of a well there are a surprising number of them in the archeological record and the reports will include type of wood used.

There were several ornately decorated ones found in Norse ship burials as well.

I thought about doing some coopering but keep finding wooden buckets for a dollar or two at fleamarkets---old icecream maker buckets---that can be easily modified to resemble period examples. (and then there was a professionally made 1 gallon white oak keg someone had made into a light---US$5 and two whittled plugs and I was in business...)

Thomas

Zouave_Capt · Post by **Zouave_Capt** » Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:44 pm

Thank you for the advice on the red oak. Now that you mention that, I think I've seen that picture, or one akin to it. I'll steer clear of that in my experimentations.

I have three of Roy Underhill's books already, I just haven't had the time to really go through them in depth as of yet. I've been trying to narrow my focus for what I want to do before I get into the large undertaking that research always is with me.

As for ships leaking, yes, there was to be some expected, thus why pine pitch was such a valuable export from North America for the first 200 years of European settlement here, as it was used primarily for building ships timbers, but I've never seen a cooper who didn't aim for a nearly watertight, or completely watertight, finished product. Wood will move, but I don't see anyone having the time to soak a bucket in water to get it to swell. I agree with what you say, wet cooperage was expected to be kept wet, or at least damp, but there will invariably be times when it is not. Why build a bucket that will loosen itself (and potentially loosen the bands around it) when it dries when you can, with only a little more work, build a bucket that will keep its bands in place.

Anyway, back to the topic that this started with, before the extremely interesting tangent into coopering....

What woodworking items do you guys NOT see a lot of, or find easy to obtain at a reasonable price?

Johannes The Bald · Post by **Johannes The Bald** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:36 pm

Zouave_Capt,

here is a dangerous website for historic woodworkers

http://mchurchantiques.timart.co.uk/

it has been giving me ideas for a few weeks now. good luck and show what you make. have fun.

insane irish,

http://www.pbs.org/wws/schedule/24season.html

episode 2404 White cooperage with norm pederson. It was an interseting show. Roy and Norm went through all the steps to making a bucket from the quartersawn wood. I saw it about 6 weeks ago.

Jay

Zouave_Capt · Post by **Zouave_Capt** » Tue Mar 13, 2007 12:08 am

Sabath, that is truly a dangerous site! I found a half dozen projects on the first page that I'm interested in. Thank you for the link!

Hubert · Post by **Hubert** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:46 pm

Jay you really are a rat fink aren't you! I'm trying to focus my energies on remodelling my house and you have to put that link up! Curse you!

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:06 pm

Theres currently 6 inches of snow between me and my (unheated) shop.. so the comments of a frustrated woodworker (with a broken tablesaw) follow:

read those Woodwrights books. LOTS of good info in there.

Find the "small finds" book of the Coppergate excavation. LOTS of good info in there, on buckets, bowls, combs, lathes, garderobe seats, etc.

Excellent info on wood types, decoration, and technique.

What I have found is that lots of people make stuff in wood.

A subset of those people make "period" stuff. More towards "periodoid" than "period".

A very few make "period" stuff, and they charge an arm and a leg for it.

I'd say if you can find a way to make good stuff _CHEAP_, you will make a killing and have no free time for the rest of your life.

But, I'd advise towards being as "period" (whichever it may be) as possible if you make something. Both in terms of materials, and appearance. I'd worry less, at this point, about doing it in period methods.

We simply don't have access to what they had access to, in RE raw materials.

As much as I'd like to go cut down the tallest, straightest oak in the forest and start working it green to make a table.. I can't. And the entire methodology of "woodworking" changes when you go from riving your own stock out of a billet of green wood, to going to Home Depot or whatever and picking out pre-sawn, pre-dried dimensional stock that you have NO idea about as far as it's origins go.

justus · Post by **justus** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:27 pm

As much as I'd like to go cut down the tallest, straightest oak in the forest and start working it green to make a table.. I can't.

Sure you can. Perhaps not THE tallest and straightest, but you can certainly cut down a tall straight tree and start from there. It doesn't even have to be that tall as long as it is straight, and more importantly not twisted.

As far as where, ask around. Surely someone you know, or someone that knows someone can tell you where there are trees for the cutting.

-Justus

Hubert · Post by **Hubert** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:12 pm

I fully appreciate what Maeryk's saying. Good luck for instance on finding a 30+" wide oak slab to make a table top with

.

I've worked with some small logs in the past and there really is a better feel when you go from start to finish, but finding trunks of a diameter to make good pieces (if you work on large projects) is very difficult, and extremely costly.

As an aside Maeryk and I have opposite problems, he has an unheated shop and difficulty working in the winter. I have an uncooled shop and practically close it from June - October

.

Zouave_Capt · Post by **Zouave_Capt** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 10:08 pm

Maeryk wrote:
A very few make "period" stuff, and they charge an arm and a leg for it.

I'd say if you can find a way to make good stuff _CHEAP_, you will make a killing and have no free time for the rest of your life.

But, I'd advise towards being as "period" (whichever it may be) as possible if you make something. Both in terms of materials, and appearance. I'd worry less, at this point, about doing it in period methods.

This is what I'm looking towards. I know how hard it is for some people to invest in something that they should have for the camp when it costs much more than they can afford. I love taking things, breaking them down and finding better ways to construct the same item, saving time and making it repeatable. I have jigs everywhere in my shop... At this point, I won't be doing it in strictly period methods, but I'd certainly be willing to hand-plane a tabletop if that is what someone REALLY wants. But for now, I want to help people improve their setups with the least cost to them as possible while not starving myself as well. I also don't want to undercut the craftsmen (and women) who are currently supplying some things, which is why I'm looking for what can't be gotten at a reasonable price for most people.

Looking for a Woodworking Project

Looking for a Woodworking Project

Re: Looking for a Woodworking Project