confusing bascinet holes - helmet finished anyway:-)

Jiri Klepac · Post by **Jiri Klepac** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:26 pm

Aaron,
thanks for the compliments, there is couple of things I will do better next time...

The rivet holds the visor in upper position. This solution is told to be original in some cases. I was told about it by one italian curator. It works fine and it was asked by a customer (friend of this curator)

Jiri

jobbee · Post by **jobbee** » Tue Apr 03, 2007 6:08 am

BUMP its april now..

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 10:40 pm

The real surprise is there are five of these! No other helmet of any type from the period 1250-1430 has more than one other match. Of those matches there are only two that are similar anough to call them paralells. Here we have five. This is extremely wierd.
There are:
Vienna (the Architype)
Marzoli Museum (exactly like Vienna but no reinfoced cap--otherwise IDENTICAL)
Wawel Castle Museum (exactly like Vienna but the lower edge of he visor is slightly shorter and fits more closely)
Polish Army Museum (Only a vvisor but identical except for the occularium being standard rather than barred)
Metropolitan Museum (the visor is a replatement but the skull is IDENTICAL to Vienna and Wawel)

Add to this the other one in vienna which is slightly differned but even shares some major similarities.

We had lots of good discussion about why and how they are similar and what it all means.

Brian W. Rainey · Post by **Brian W. Rainey** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:08 pm

Talbot wrote:We had lots of good discussion about why and how they are similar and what it all means.

It is my opinion that the helms and visors were forge welded out of a cone and sent here by aliens via the dolphins to confuse the human race.

I forgot to mention this at the conference. Must have been too busy running the camera. Darn it, I wanted a qualified opinion on the subject. Next time, I guess. Why do I always miss the best opportunities? :shock:

Honestly, the skulls in Wawel, Met and Vienna will get further attention. They are extremely similar and were in private collections (in the late 1800/early 1900s, I believe). Both their construction and provenance requires more investigation. I would hesitate stating that they are an exact match as we do not have measurements. However, they share the exact same stylistic elements and shape.

If memory serves, the Met hat went from Kruezenstein (sp?) and into the hands of Bashford Dean around 1906. Kruezenstein is rumored to have had a lot of questionable pieces in his collection, but just about every collection at this time did. So this is not a useful piece of information for this discussion.

There is obvious evidence that the visor is not originally associated with the helm and has been refit at least once after its publication in Laking (1896?). The mounts and arms appear to be different at this time than early photos show and the visor has obviously been refit at least one other time, possible two. Perhaps once to migrate it from its original helm to the current one and then again to improve/modify the fit on the current skull. I think they should be separated as it is obvious they are two sperarate pieces, but that is an opinion. This helm is currently in reserve so there is no harm in them remaining together.

The top cap is very thick and threaded with a flattened top. Distinct creases run the top and back of the helm. It is a captivating shape.

I have notes and photos if anyone is ever in the area and interested in studying them. There are some interesting elements to this piece, no doubt.

I would be ineterested in knowing if a now-filled set of holes in the side of the helm would correspond to correct fitment of the Vienna visor. This would be intriguing to say the least.

Could talk about this subject for hours... but must get some work done. Ciao!

Jiri Klepac · Post by **Jiri Klepac** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:12 am

Doug and Brian. I am sorry I missed the conf. I wouldnÂ´t leave without knowing what theese holes were for:-) A while ago I have seen people using thin rawhide strip to sew aventail with it through such a holes. Once it hardens it is quite firm attaching... I donÂ´t delieve this is authentic, but if there is so many examples of the same, what it says?

Jiri

PS: forgot to ask: the same mystery for me is attaching mail to the leather on the aventail. Is it to be stitched to it or rings knitted directly to it? There is probably problem with proving it.. I have seen couple of pieces with clearly reconstructed leather (useless source) or pieces like CHRB brass hat, with old-looking leather and light stitches which does not seem even more. Personally I went only with direct knitting it steel on leather and it seems both practical and durable...
Is there some source I should study? Thank you very much

Jiri

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:41 pm

Doug and Brian, Any Idea what the pairs of holes are for?...Otto

Jiri Klepac · Post by **Jiri Klepac** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:43 pm

Doug or Brian, sorry for disturbing again. Could yo please help me with those questions? If I could revenge somehow, please let me know.

all the best

jiri

Henry of Bexley · Post by **Henry of Bexley** » Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:18 pm

Aventail attachement-

The Churburg armoury has two bascinets that have their original aventails mounted. The rings are whipstitched with what appears to be a braided thread of some sort to a leather band that is mounted on the vervelles. If I remember correctly there are only four bascinets with their aventails surviving today, and two of them are in Churburg, done this way. The new Churburg book has very nice detail shots.

Jiri Klepac · Post by **Jiri Klepac** » Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:54 am

Horradrick,

I have the book, so thatÂ´s why I asked:-) The stitching doesnÂ´t seem to be firm enough to me and I did not have info about itÂ´s originality. If leather is original, then no discussion abut it. In fact I would like to know if knitting the mail rings directly to the leather can be correct or not. definitelly works great...

Jiri