The Beast

platearmor · Post by **platearmor** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:54 pm

A BASIC SCA combat helm.

Smooth glancing surfaces, Heavy duty construction 12 gauge Skull, 14 gauge skirt, 10 GAUGE faceplate. Solidly welded, with a satin finish.

29.5 skull fits 6.25 to 7 hat size with room for padding.

Unlike bars the grill doesn't catch tip shots No broken bent bars with this beast. full eye slot 7/8 inch wide and faceplate has good vision and breathing. We are selling the BEASTS for a mere $200 plus shipping.

Uh RAH!

Mike

GrumpyMacBastard · Post by **GrumpyMacBastard** » Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:22 pm

Hey Mike,

Just wondering but if I ordered one of those helms without the face plate holes, does that change the cost?

Stonekeep · Post by **Stonekeep** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 11:57 am

Hey Mike,

Put 3 or 4 rivets down each side of the faceplate. One lap weld on the inside isnt going to pass everywhere. You can go with JUST the rivets if they are spaced right, but Id suggest putting in rivets, then continueing to weld the inside lap. Thats what i do, and marshall's cant complain.
The only other thing you can do thats legal is weld both of the laps on a lapweld. I know it sounds dumb, but its been described to me as a rule created because a lot of homebuilders dont know how to properly weld.
When I first started making helms, I did a couple where I just welded the inside of the lap and I got them back because they didnt pass inspection. Simple solution was to just put some rivets in it, and then they were MORE than legal.

Sean Powell · Post by **Sean Powell** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:23 pm

As a marshal I would pass this helm (or at least not bounce it because of the type of weld). If the weld on this ever does fail then the visor is still blocked from hitting the face. If the visor were welded to the inside (which I believe was the case in the failed helm that initiated that particular rule) I would not pass it.

Obviously I'm just one marshal and some marshals can find an excuse to bounce anything.

For my opinion I would like to see a nasal bar connecting the grill to the forehead. I have seen great helms without nasal bars where the top and bottom move in different directions after repeated poundings. I AM happy to see more pierced visors rather then bar-grills.

It looks to be a good helm.

Sean

Stonekeep · Post by **Stonekeep** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 1:42 pm

Sean Powell wrote:Obviously I'm just one marshal and some marshals can find an excuse to bounce anything.

Sean

Exactly, and it gets expensive to pay for that return trip plus shipping it back to the guy... Fairly insignificant changes now, could save Mike a good bit of money later...plus that guy and that marshall then tell people you dont know what you are doing, which can potentially be more expensive.lolol

Restrictions concerning lap welds are clearly in the rules though, and Mike sure doesnt need to find that out 20 helms from now.

I personally think its a stupid rule... I know this helm is well-constructed and Id trust my head in it.

platearmor · Post by **platearmor** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 2:54 pm

We like having nothing sticking out- nothing to catch. We'll just add flush rivets to keep the marshalls happy.

As far as the nasal bar-12 gage tops, 10 gage visor-it takes a 30 ton press to size and shape these after welding them up the center. If they really manage to move around something this massive-we'll look into adding them.

Stonekeep · Post by **Stonekeep** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 3:34 pm

Welded and riveted into place and in 10 gauge, I dont see the size of that opening changing from normal use..lol

platearmor · Post by **platearmor** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:03 pm

GrumpyMacBastard wrote:Hey Mike,

Just wondering but if I ordered one of those helms without the face plate holes, does that change the cost?

If you drop the gauge of the face plate to 12 we could do it for 185. If we keep the faceplate at 10 gauge, it would run around the same price because of increased difficulty in forming the faceplate so you do not gain any savings.

We are working very hard to keep the price down around the 200 level for the Beast, and we have shaved things very closely to get there..We do not have many more places to shave without sacrificing quality.

Mike

platearmor · Post by **platearmor** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 4:19 pm

One more thing to note on the BEAST. The faceplate is formed in a bowl with a reverse curve at the bottom. This shape versus a cylinder allows it to take al lot of pressure. Also the reverse curve at the bottom of the faceplate allows easy entry and provides another layer of rigidity. We also place the faceplate over the helmet edges so even if a weld broke. (Not very likely as the weld is massive) The helmet would still protect. And to make sure that marshals don't have an issue we added in some flush rivets just to keep them happy.

Mike

Ceddie · Post by **Ceddie** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 8:07 pm

Speaking as an Earl Marshal, the welds and joining on ALL of the work that I have seen from the folks at Black Diamond meet or exceed all SCA safety requirements.
Buy with confidence, this is a solid helm that should provide years of quality service.

it's too small for my head

Stonekeep · Post by **Stonekeep** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 9:42 pm

Ceddie wrote:Speaking as an Earl Marshal, the welds and joining on ALL of the work that I have seen from the folks at Black Diamond meet or exceed all SCA safety requirements.
Buy with confidence, this is a solid helm that should provide years of quality service.

it's too small for my head

Mike made a really nice comment about me the other day, and to return the nicety I am trying to keep him from losing about $40 a helm for double return shipping. It happened to me just last year so I kinda know what Im talking about.

platearmor · Post by **platearmor** » Wed Mar 28, 2007 10:19 pm

I made the comment about your good business sense because of the help you offered the newbie armourer in New Zealand. I read what you posted and it was dead on correct. As a Texas Native I was aware of your reputation for quality built SCA armor. So when you make suggestions regarding construction techniques I pay close attention. The reality is that often times the Marshal at the event is the final deciding authority, and has some discretion of how the rules are interpreted. I also play close attention to any suggestions Ceddie has. For years I refused to build helmets with a comb over Â¾ of inch high, because a marshal disqualified my helmet because he felt the 3/4 inch comb would break rattan. No matter that it was an inch wide and no matter it had passed in California, Arizona and Texas, he was the marshal and that was thatâ€¦.

Found out recently that there really is no such ruling, Go figure.

Stonekeep · Post by **Stonekeep** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:54 am

I got two shipped back to me last year, one was from Ansteorra (how embarrassing was that..lol), and both for the lapweld rule. It was embarrassing and cost money, so if I have saved you from it, then mission accomplished. What bothered me most was wondering how many people were told that two of my helms failed, then of course since they were entry level without much markup, I ended up losing money on them.

I dont know if that guy from New Zealand took what i said to heart because I never got an email from him. I was wanting to kinda use him as a pet project and help mentor him along.

InsaneIrish · Post by **InsaneIrish** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:58 am

Stonekeep wrote:I got two shipped back to me last year, one was from Ansteorra (how embarrassing was that..lol), and both for the lapweld rule. It was embarrassing and cost money, so if I have saved you from it, then mission accomplished. What bothered me most was wondering how many people were told that two of my helms failed, then of course since they were entry level without much markup, I ended up losing money on them.

I dont know if that guy from New Zealand took what i said to heart because I never got an email from him. I was wanting to kinda use him as a pet project and help mentor him along.

Just an FYI, but you might suggest to anyone that gets a helm bounced by a marshal, to appeal to the KEM BEFORE returning it.

As much as I hate to say it about my fellow marshals. Some of us are WAY out of the loop and appealing it to someone more informed may be cheaper and easier than product change.

Just FYI.

mattmaus · Post by **mattmaus** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 9:28 am

InsaneIrish wrote:Just an FYI, but you might suggest to anyone that gets a helm bounced by a marshal, to appeal to the KEM BEFORE returning it.

If I had a customer want to return or modify a helmet because it bounced inspection the first 3 things I would ask in order are:

Why?
Did you find a marshal with a clue?
Did you apeal to KEM?

But... it's still a pain in the butt.

I wouldn't really question the construction of this helmet in the least. One could skip the welds and put a hinge up top and it's just like a klapvisor. But yeah... bounce it because the welds aren't up to the letter of the rule.... :roll:

To avoid it, it's plenty easy to put 6 rivets in the thing. A 15 minute job, (maybe 17 if he countersinks them) that's going to firmly CYA. 15 minutes work is hell and gone worth several hours frustration down the road.

platearmor · Post by **platearmor** » Thu Mar 29, 2007 11:31 am

We put rivets in it yesterday-to keep the marshalls happy.