Sugerloaf dates,

Edward MacTavish · Post by **Edward MacTavish** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 9:55 am

What are the generaly excepted dates for a sugerloaf great helm?

Edward

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 11:14 am

early 14th is what I tend to think of for it. Till about 1350 at the latest.

RPM

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Wed Apr 04, 2007 4:36 pm

RandallMoffett wrote:early 14th is what I tend to think of for it. Till about 1350 at the latest.

RPM

Late 13th, until late 14th as a jousting helm. They show up in art around 1280, adn the last depiction I can think of is definitely 1370's. Just tack 20 years onto either side of your estimation, and you have got it. Again, the last few decades I'm pretty sure they are relegated to jousting, but there are definitely depictions of them that late.

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:17 am

Bob,

Yeah I was thinking more for war, I should have said that I suppose. I have not seen any depictions from circa 1280 though. If you could post or PM me the citation that would be helpful for me in the future. I just found reference to a visored helmet in the patent rolls in the 4th quarter of the 13th and am wondering over if it is a great helm with visor or perhaps a sugarloaf.

RPM

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:23 am

RandallMoffett wrote:Bob,

Yeah I was thinking more for war, I should have said that I suppose. I have not seen any depictions from circa 1280 though. If you could post or PM me the citation that would be helpful for me in the future. I just found reference to a visored helmet in the patent rolls in the 4th quarter of the 13th and am wondering over if it is a great helm with visor or perhaps a sugarloaf.

RPM

Hi Randal,

It took me a little while, but I found your references. We need to push back the introductory date for the Sugarloaf prior to the middle of the 13th century in Italy, and here are the references

Faits des Romains (Rome, 1233), Bibliotheque Royal, Ms.10168-72,f.131r, Brussels

And a mid 13th century carving, Pinacoteca communal gallery, Sansepulcro.

That last one seems to depict a moveable visor

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:26 am

Bob,

Thanks for that. I will now have to look around for them. So first half of the 13th on to end of 14th then (mid 14th for war). Very nice. Thanks for those references.

RPM