Wow! these folks look like us!

[freiman the minstrel]

http://www.bladeturner.com/explore/haub ... berkg.html

This made me smile.

f

[Angusm0628]

chainmail with the archive device.. Yeah it's all good.

[Konstantin the Red]

Though as for BT's idea of how to build a mailshirt... whooee. The parts that aren't weird are historically, uh, wild. I steer people to Trevor Barker and the knowledgeable counsel of Erik D. Schmid instead. For instance, AFAIK, dags appear earliest on late-fourteenth haburgeons, with plain edges and hems being the rule earlier, and the late fourteenth having even more examples of just plain hems than little forests of points. Tangentially, I suppose dags to be somewhat more common on late-14th camails than on haburgeons of that era.

That said, I don't entirely despise a 45-Degree/Four-Trapezoids type shoulder -- you just have to be aware that it isn't historic and can often have mobility problems in raising the arm above about horizontal. It tends to drag the entire side of the shirt upwards with the sleeve unless the design is careful.

The historic fighting mailshirt types worn when people schlepped mail for keeps are believed to be the open hang sleeve running out from the European Modified Square shoulder (proven beyond doubt) and the closed hang sleeve running from the round Mantletop (a maybe, what evidence there is is artwork only). The sleeve will be open hang in the first type or closed hang in the second. A mantletop may be very practical; a shirt so constructed can very neatly make an integral coif for the large 13th-c. hauberk with coif, long sleeves, and mufflers, but elbow construction in the sleeve is trickier because you're having to do row expansions rather than columnar ones -- the ordinary sort, with the extra idler ring included. Row expansions aren't so smooth or neat unless you resort to some tricky tricks with two decreasing sizes of links. Short and half sleeve shirts don't have this problem, of course, but were they used in this era? That's questionable.

[Padrig]

Do they have permission to use the AA logo?

Just curious.

Pad

[mordreth]

...........
and the closed hang sleeve running from the round Mantletop (a maybe, what evidence there is is artwork only). The sleeve will be open hang in the first type or closed hang in the second. A mantletop may be very practical; a shirt so constructed can very neatly make an integral coif for the large 13th-c. hauberk with coif, long sleeves, and mufflers, but elbow construction in the sleeve is trickier because you're having to do row expansions rather than columnar ones -- the ordinary sort, with the extra idler ring included. Row expansions aren't so smooth or neat unless you resort to some tricky tricks with two decreasing sizes of links. Short and half sleeve shirts don't have this problem, of course, but were they used in this era? That's questionable.

The hauberk of Boris Godenov in the Kremlin armory is constructed off of a circular opening, with the sleeves flowing off very nicely

[Egfroth]

There are pictures of dagged hauberks from both Francia and England dating back to the 11th century .

[sha-ul]

ok it's pretty obvious he pirated the AA logo the question I have is why?
have a look here--->http://www.bladeturner.com/pattern/plate.html
some interesting patterns check out his sources

[Konstantin the Red]

Ah, yes, that baidana, Mord? Sure looks like it might be mantletop-built, and I was forgetting I'd seen one pic of it here on the Archive. I was awaiting either closer bigger pics or other confirmation, to be certain. Erik D. Schmid is of course interested to confirm it too.

It finally settled for me just what sort of shirt a baidana was -- made of large, washerish rings, E4-1 weave, sometimes worn over another mailshirt as supplementary armor. I wondered what language the term comes from, so I went looking. Xenophon-mil.org has this:

A Baidana is shown on the left. The term comes from the Arab word, "badan" - a short, ringed armor. The baidana is a form of armor made of metal rings. It differs from the kol'chuga itself only in the size and form of the rings. The baidana's rings look like washers rather than wire and are large and flat-forged or stamped from sheet metal. Here is an example ofrings. Notice the writing stamped into the rings. They were fixed either one upon the other, or on a nail or spike. As a result, the joint was fairly stable. These baidana were frequently split in front at the neck to allow them to be put on over the head. This opening was held closed by several clasps. The longer versions were split at the hem to enable the wearer to sit on his horse. The baidana was long, to the knees or below with long sleeves, or if it was shorter then was known as a half-baidana. The most famous existing baidana is the one that belonged to Boris Gudonov. It is in the Kremlin armory. On many of the rings of this armor is stamped the moto: "God is with us". A Baidana weighed up to 6 kg and might contain 10,000 rings. The baidana showed itself to be an effective defense against slashing saber blows, but did not suffice against thrusting weapons and fire because of the large diameter of the rings.
Besermen baidana as this type of armor is called in the Zadonschina, existed in Russia from 1200. In some cases, it was accompanied by other types of defensive armor.

The hyperlinks dispersed through the text did not make it through the copying process, but you can enjoy the whole works here:

http://xenophon-mil.org/rushistory/medievalarmor/partii.htm#Baidana

[Konstantin the Red]

There are pictures of dagged hauberks from both Francia and England dating back to the 11th century .

Awright! -- any of them online?

[mordreth]

Ah, yes, that baidana, Mord? Sure looks like it might be mantletop-built, and I was forgetting I'd seen one pic of it here on the Archive. I was awaiting either closer bigger pics or other confirmation, to be certain. Erik D. Schmid is of course interested to confirm it too.

It finally settled for me just what sort of shirt a baidana was -- made of large, washerish rings, E4-1 weave, sometimes worn over another mailshirt as supplementary armor. I wondered what language the term comes from, so I went looking. Xenophon-mil.org has this:

A Baidana is shown on the left. The term comes from the Arab word, "badan" - a short, ringed armor. The baidana is a form of armor made of metal rings. It differs from the kol'chuga itself only in the size and form of the rings. The baidana's rings look like washers rather than wire and are large and flat-forged or stamped from sheet metal. Here is an example ofrings. Notice the writing stamped into the rings. They were fixed either one upon the other, or on a nail or spike. As a result, the joint was fairly stable. These baidana were frequently split in front at the neck to allow them to be put on over the head. This opening was held closed by several clasps. The longer versions were split at the hem to enable the wearer to sit on his horse. The baidana was long, to the knees or below with long sleeves, or if it was shorter then was known as a half-baidana. The most famous existing baidana is the one that belonged to Boris Gudonov. It is in the Kremlin armory. On many of the rings of this armor is stamped the moto: "God is with us". A Baidana weighed up to 6 kg and might contain 10,000 rings. The baidana showed itself to be an effective defense against slashing saber blows, but did not suffice against thrusting weapons and fire because of the large diameter of the rings.
Besermen baidana as this type of armor is called in the Zadonschina, existed in Russia from 1200. In some cases, it was accompanied by other types of defensive armor.

The hyperlinks dispersed through the text did not make it through the copying process, but you can enjoy the whole works here:

http://xenophon-mil.org/rushistory/medievalarmor/partii.htm#Baidana

If I can find my exhibition book for the treasures of the kremlin I'll post the picture they had, it was a magnificent piece.

BTW - Mord actually is a different poster on this board.

[Konstantin the Red]

Right then -- I promise I'll try to keep the two of you distinguished.