Hanwei's Federschwert for Cut and Thrust?

[Fearghus Macildubh]

Does anyone know if Hanwei's federswchert has been tried in SCA cut and thrust? Here's a link from the CAS/Hanwei website:
http://www.casiberia.com/product_details.asp?id=SH2333

Cheers,
Fearghus

[Saritor]

I picked up a couple of them at War...I have heavy rapir blades that hit harder and have less flex. They're beautiful weapons and, most amusingly, period foyls for longsword.

I've heard C&T people from other kingdoms mention longsword, but I don't know of any kingdoms that have experimented with these specifically, or what they're meaning by longsword.

[Baron Alejandro]

I don't like hanwei because the steel they use is shoddy and there's no continuity of quality. One blade may be perfect, the next may be useless.

Some people think they're alright, but I think it's rude to use anything less than the best weapon available on your friends.

[Saritor]

I don't like hanwei because the steel they use is shoddy and there's no continuity of quality. One blade may be perfect, the next may be useless.

Some people think they're alright, but I think it's rude to use anything less than the best weapon available on your friends.

I've heard the same complaint regarding pretty much every blade supplier, at one point or another, including Darkwood.

I have two Del Tin blades...one got run over by a semi years ago, has a minor kink in the blade, and is otherwise indestructible...it was one of the first Darkwoods with Del Tin blades. I've got another Darkwood with a later model of Del Tin blade and I have much less confidence in it. It's a lot softer than I'd like and somewhat concerns me to the point that I won't fight certain people with it.

I've seen several Zen Warrior blades fail from manufacturing defects, and more that are rock solid.

I try to judge my blades for safety as best as I can, and trust my friends to do the same. If not, I'll have to rely on my armor and reflexes to save me. (Thank God for the armor part, then. )

[Baron Alejandro]

I've heard the same complaint regarding pretty much every blade supplier, at one point or another, including Darkwood.

I have two Del Tin blades...one got run over by a semi years ago, has a minor kink in the blade, and is otherwise indestructible...it was one of the first Darkwoods with Del Tin blades. I've got another Darkwood with a later model of Del Tin blade and I have much less confidence in it. It's a lot softer than I'd like and somewhat concerns me to the point that I won't fight certain people with it.

I've seen several Zen Warrior blades fail from manufacturing defects, and more that are rock solid.

I try to judge my blades for safety as best as I can, and trust my friends to do the same. If not, I'll have to rely on my armor and reflexes to save me. (Thank God for the armor part, then. )

I'm not an expert or a metallurgist of any kind, but I have some knowledge of modern blade-forging techniques for most of the modern suppliers.
Of course some blades fail. Nearly all manufactured items, all, have a rate of failure. You choose your manufacturer based on rate of failure. Hanwei's rate of failure is unacceptably high for me, and others are completely unknown. That is why I don't recommend them. Expecting a perfect blade every time will only end in heartbreak.

[Saritor]

Which reminds me...I wonder if KRM and/or SRM compile and publish failed blade statistics, or whether a study could be done on it...

[Aaron Schnatterly]

... ok, so maybe I haven't had enough (pots of) coffee yet this morning, but I have to ask...

Why would one use a longsword for C&T work? It's not anywhere close to the same in handling or form... Smallswords are about the opposite end of the spectrum.

Now, if someone is doing HWMA work in the veins of either Fiore or Liechtenauer, the longsword is obviously the right choice.

That's my take on it, but as my friend Wayne used to say: "There's more than one way to skin a cat, other than to put it's head in a boot jack and pull it's tail."

Color me confused...

[Baron Alejandro]

Why would one use a longsword for C&T work? It's not anywhere close to the same in handling or form... Smallswords are about the opposite end of the spectrum.

I have no idea why. It seems to be all the rage here in Atlantia, and while there are no safety issues with using them, from a style standpoint I can't stand to see them on the field. I will and have beat the metaphorical daylights out of anyone wielding them that I come across.

[Aaron Schnatterly]

I have no idea why. It seems to be all the rage here in Atlantia, and while there are no safety issues with using them, from a style standpoint I can't stand to see them on the field. I will and have beat the metaphorical daylights out of anyone wielding them that I come across.

Thanks, both for the validation that I'm at least conscious (I was wondering about that), and for "handling business".

For some of the amazing things I've seen from folks here like Leo Medii, Murdock, D. Sebastian, Regulus (and a lot more), with lots of effort going towards "doing it right", I'm just still at a loss as to why. If I pick up a longsword, I immediately go all German, 'cause that tool begs to be used as such... A good Zornhau will go straight through a 550N mask, and I can send one fast enough that if you blink, you won't see it until it hits paydirt. An arming sword (and there are a goodly number of them on the market) would be so much more appropriate, though still completely wrong.

I'm not SCA, so I know nothing of the mindset or culture that prevails... and I certainly mean no disrespect. I just can't fathom how one could even fake C&T/rapier work like Morozzo or Saviolo with something with such disparate handling characteristics. I just tried... literally. My Meyer and my I:33 are here in my shop.

[Baron Alejandro]

I should clarify.

I'm seeing a bunch of longswords on the rapier field. And there, I will (safely) brutalize someone until they eventually realize it's tactically unviable.

My understanding of the C&T program is that it is intended to be a different animal from SCA rapier, even though it got lumped in there. So there, I can see the applicability of having a longsword. At least a little. I'll never use one, for the reasons you've described, but it seems to be a little less....ill-advised.

[Aaron Schnatterly]

I should clarify.

I'm seeing a bunch of longswords on the rapier field. And there, I will (safely) brutalize someone until they eventually realize it's tactically unviable.

Of course... if I implied (don't think so) that you were playing whack-a-mole with a vengeance, I certainly didn't mean to - even from just the boards, I know you better. In fact, the impression I had was precisely as you state here... a reasonable experiential learning opportunity, and a way to take it to the next level.

My understanding of the C&T program is that it is intended to be a different animal from SCA rapier, even though it got lumped in there. So there, I can see the applicability of having a longsword. At least a little. I'll never use one, for the reasons you've described, but it seems to be a little less....ill-advised.

I'm very glad to see the advances within the SCA and like organizations. I haven't been active since somewhere around '93. There are some great trends. One area that is severely lacking in good training tools are anything other than rapier work, sword and buckler, and longsword. Not to turn this into a marketing deal at all, but I know we (Albion) are still working towards covering most of the options with training tools, including a smallsword, a C&T sword, and a rapier. Arms and Armor is expanding their training swords line, too. Hanwei/Chen stuff is out. Scott has stuff out. Of course, Zen has stuff.

My impression of the focus of the folks who did historical fencing (again, my experience was forever ago) tried to get it right.

I suppose this thread just really hit me in an odd way this morning. It's no personal crusade or anything... I was just ask'n.

[Saritor]

If I pick up a longsword, I immediately go all German, 'cause that tool begs to be used as such... A good Zornhau will go straight through a 550N mask, and I can send one fast enough that if you blink, you won't see it until it hits paydirt. An arming sword (and there are a goodly number of them on the market) would be so much more appropriate, though still completely wrong.

How do people in the WMA community handle free sparring within the schools? Is it mostly not done because of the safety issues you mention?

For a Fiore group, or a Meyer/Lichtenauer school?

I'm in pretty much the middle of nowhere for WMA, so I have no experience beyond having seen people discuss free sparring with longsword. I don't know what the weapons/armor requirements, safety thresholds or speed/power requirements are.

[Saritor]

I should clarify.

I'm seeing a bunch of longswords on the rapier field. And there, I will (safely) brutalize someone until they eventually realize it's tactically unviable.

That makes sense to me, and I'll agree with that. You cut out huge chunks of your tactical options that the style is built around by trying to wedge it in to regular fencing like that.

My understanding of the C&T program is that it is intended to be a different animal from SCA rapier, even though it got lumped in there. So there, I can see the applicability of having a longsword. At least a little. I'll never use one, for the reasons you've described, but it seems to be a little less....ill-advised.

Because of the dangers with 550N masks, or general dangers of using longsword in C&T?

[Aaron Schnatterly]

If I pick up a longsword, I immediately go all German, 'cause that tool begs to be used as such... A good Zornhau will go straight through a 550N mask, and I can send one fast enough that if you blink, you won't see it until it hits paydirt. An arming sword (and there are a goodly number of them on the market) would be so much more appropriate, though still completely wrong.

How do people in the WMA community handle free sparring within the schools? Is it mostly not done because of the safety issues you mention?

The general, globally accepted #1 rule is: "Exercise control, restraint, and control. Oh, and exercise control."

I said I can send a Zorn that fast/strong... not that I often do, and most certainly never against a living target. A pell, cardboard box... yeah.

Not even in structured drills where everyone knows exactly what to expect, from where, and precisely when do we practice with full speed and unbridled intent. Dr. Bill put it most eloquently, when he said "It's just too f'n easy to get this stuff right."

I'm in pretty much the middle of nowhere for WMA, so I have no experience beyond having seen people discuss free sparring with longsword. I don't know what the weapons/armor requirements, safety thresholds or speed/power requirements are.

Everyone has different levels of "acceptable". I've worked to varying levels with the folks in the shop. I know my boundaries and limitations. I try to know what my "opponent's" are. My usual sparring/training partner is my wife. She's scary - she can handle a longsword quite well. She is wicked-fast, and strong, too. She has a good understanding of kinematics, and has developed a pretty good sense of fuhlen (feeling at the sword). We practice drills often with heavy gloves and fencing masks. Free sparring with a stepped up degree of intent is done with the addition of appropriate armour - may be plate gorgets, lacrosse shoulders/chest/back/arms or gambesons, and very heavy gloves, and we are in the process of switching to steel gauntlets, and fully-enclosed helms that are much stronger. Still, control is our number one focus. Shots are never thrown completely at the head, but are, instead, pulled. The masks still get dented here and there... I don't often free-play, either. That's not what develops technique. It does validate technique, though, and it builds reflexes and fluency with technique. It is our preference to always use rebated steel, since it looks, feels, and acts/reacts like a sharp. I will use a sharp for solo drills (because it handles EXACTLY like a sharp) and cutting practice. Many other folks feel more comfortable with aluminum blunts and/or wood or plastic wasters.

That's just my take... others train/play/fight harder and some don't. I'm past the middle of the balance towards the more hardcore side...

I hope this helps answer to some degree what you were asking. It's such a broad topic for discussion that we could hook up in person for a few hours...

[Aaron Schnatterly]

Because of the dangers with 550N masks, or general dangers of using longsword in C&T?

I'll certainly not presume to be the Good Baron... but those were not the primary issues I was stating. (Safety, of course, is paramount.) The longsword just isn't the proper tool. The typical longsword doesn't have the static and dynamic properties as the typical smallsword. You can't even grip them the same way in many cases, and, using two swords that I am personally VERY acquainted with (the Munich and the Svante), the grip length would seriously hinder things. When I read the thread in the first place, I just had the image of a surgeon using a butcher knife, or a butcher a scalpel in their respective crafts. Will they cut? Sure. In a familiar and useful way? Meh... inefficient, awkward... One could go through the motions, but the outcome questionable and the experience less than pleasant.

As I said, I've very little recent experience with the SCA, so I have little/no background to know what the trend and future is... if longswords are interesting, why not just study the readily accessible material on them. If C&T is the focus, the right tool will make the experience and learning so, so much better. That's really my question.

[iomtalach]

Alrighty, now that you guys have finished the rant-fest...

I would love to see the federschwert allowed for C&T. They are great sparring tools. As far as I know they aren't on the approved blades list yet, though. (along with the hanwei mortuary, also a staple in the local WMA schools...)

I'm also looking forward to our kingdom allowing us to use the hanwei hand and a half sword for C&T.

As to the rest of the conversation...I'm just taking it as a reminder that the rest of the SCA does things different.

Here we tend to use the weapon the way it is meant to be used, and then apply the rules on top of that structure.

I'll use a federschwert the way it is meant to be used...Meyer all the way.
The longword will be used differently, just like I use a wider rapier differently from a narrow rapier.

The C&T rules, as written, allow two period styles from almost any period to spar and compete safely.

[Aaron Schnatterly]

Here we tend to use the weapon the way it is meant to be used, and then apply the rules on top of that structure.

I'll use a federschwert the way it is meant to be used...Meyer all the way.
The longword will be used differently, just like I use a wider rapier differently from a narrow rapier.

The C&T rules, as written, allow two period styles from almost any period to spar and compete safely.

Ok, now this gives me a wholly different impression, and perhaps a heck of a lot of clarity.

When I initially saw C&T, I assumed, from my WMA "from the fechtbuch" vantage point, that what this meant was literally and exclusively C&T work. If it is being used as a broader term to allow all forms to be used (ie: someone can come with I:33 against someone with Fiore or Morozzo), then that's a totally different thing altogether - in which case, hell yeah... the paradigm shifts - sounds like fun.

[Saritor]

Ok, now this gives me a wholly different impression, and perhaps a heck of a lot of clarity.

When I initially saw C&T, I assumed, from my WMA "from the fechtbuch" vantage point, that what this meant was literally and exclusively C&T work. If it is being used as a broader term to allow all forms to be used (ie: someone can come with I:33 against someone with Fiore or Morozzo), then that's a totally different thing altogether - in which case, hell yeah... the paradigm shifts - sounds like fun.

Which, in turn, clears up what I was wondering about.

While I'm trying to use Meyer for C&T, I'm currently focusing on the rapier section. I'd love to be able to work up a dusack simulator that we could make experimental.

If the longswords were allowed, even as an experimental blade type, there'd be a pretty good push to allow them to be used with their respective styles.

I was just talking with someone this morning (right before I saw this post originally) who had asked about my opinion of experimental blades for C&T, like the Hanwei 4th gen Austrian longsword (he'd like to work with Fiore more), so I had an odd moment of disconnect when I saw this thread.

[Baron Alejandro]

Ranting? Am I a grumpy old man yet? That'd be totally SWEET!

From what I understand (and we are completely derailing here) C&T was designed as a live-fire exercise for a number of techniques. It wasn't exclusively meant for conventional rapier play. So people are trying all sorts of crazy and cool stuff.

I can't wait to use my turkish saber again.

[Saritor]

(ie: someone can come with I:33 against someone with Fiore or Morozzo), then that's a totally different thing altogether - in which case, hell yeah... the paradigm shifts - sounds like fun.

I will agree with Alejandro on the blade quality of the federschwert here: I wouldn't want to necessarily see federschwert vs, say, Darkwood's backsword blade. I don't think the federschwert would hold up well.

If the federschwerts were being used against each other, I think they'd hold up a lot better.

My 4th gen Hanwei....that might be a different story.

[iomtalach]

The federschwert in particular should only be used against each other, IMHO...They are really beautiful when used properly. Not so much in any other context.

My "vision" of C&T is that it will be a new umbrella rule set for the SCA to replace both rapier and heavy. Just gotta add armored-as-is, and a whack of new simulators, and we can have a hugely realistic rule set, that has a built in encouragement for historical accuracy.

Mmm sexy...

[Aaron Schnatterly]

Getting this all back on track, coming full circle, whatever... now that I see from the right perspective the intent of the program, that's really actually phenomenal. Nothing better than an experimentation-friendly environment to, well, experiment and learn. I'll wager, though, that the outcome will be that the best piece for the style will be the one that was used in period...

For the record, longsword vs. longsword is a completely different experience than sword & buckler vs. longsword or vice versa... That's something wild. I've seen people playing with longsword vs. rapier (I suck at 16th C. or later swordsmanship).

Actually, I'm glad we "ranted" on and on here... 'cause some good clarity came out, as did some further thinking on styles and safety issues.

I will agree with Alejandro on the blade quality of the federschwert here: I wouldn't want to necessarily see federschwert vs, say, Darkwood's backsword blade. I don't think the federschwert would hold up well.

If the federschwerts were being used against each other, I think they'd hold up a lot better.

My 4th gen Hanwei....that might be a different story.

At the risk of being accused of a shameless plug, my Meyer has thrashed everything it's touched, other than other Albion or Arms and Armor pieces. They are, however, probably 3 to 4 times as expensive. In years past, I've used Hanwei pieces (like the practical knightly sword - 1-hander - and the hand and a half, as well as the swept-hilt practice rapier), and I'm absolutely not dissing them.

[Aaron Schnatterly]

My "vision" of C&T is that it will be a new umbrella rule set for the SCA to replace both rapier and heavy. Just gotta add armored-as-is, and a whack of new simulators, and we can have a hugely realistic rule set, that has a built in encouragement for historical accuracy.

Mmm sexy...

You got 100% agreement from me... I was a bit confused and perhaps disheartened a bit by my initial view - that this was a step in a weird if not wrong direction for the SCA, and against the grain of a lot who have been trying to make at least their personae and heavy kits as authentic as they can. Instead, it apparently is precisely what I had hoped to be seeing continue to evolve.

Thanks, guys, for helping clear this up for me.

[taluntheb]

Baron Alejandro Said:
I don't like hanwei because the steel they use is shoddy and there's no continuity of quality. One blade may be perfect, the next may be useless.

Some people think they're alright, but I think it's rude to use anything less than the best weapon available on your friends.


Hmmm, aren't you also a Zen Warrior/ Tripplette Dealer? Coincidence? I think not.

Sorry Alejandro, I am just kidding, I just read your post and thought, but wait... isn't Hanwei his compettition. I know little about rapier blades, but I certainly have enough respect for you to trust your word on them.
I just couldn't resist a little dig.

Talun Mac Dubhagain- Who bought his schlager from Alejandro.

[Jon Barber]

I'm also looking forward to our kingdom allowing us to use the hanwei hand and a half sword for C&T.

In a word- awesome. It's a hoot.

Here we tend to use the weapon the way it is meant to be used, and then apply the rules on top of that structure.

I'll use a federschwert the way it is meant to be used...Meyer all the way.
The longword will be used differently, just like I use a wider rapier differently from a narrow rapier.

Got it in one.

The C&T rules, as written, allow two period styles from almost any period to spar and compete safely.

Again, right on brother.

Randy has summed it up nicely.

[ticeetal]

Hello all,

If you are looking for a excellent steel trainer, check out Arms and Armor’s Fechterspiel. Our WMA group uses them exclusively. The are period, nicely balanced, quality made here in the US, and you will find them to be of more substance and still give the minimum needed flex than the Hanwae fechtsword. Care is minimal I use a silicone rag to wipe the blade down after practice, and keep a small file on hand to smooth out and remove any burs from practice.

Regards,
Odeane…

http://www.armor.com/train204.html

[Baron Alejandro]

I know little about rapier blades, but I certainly have enough respect for you to trust your word on them.
I just couldn't resist a little dig.

Talun Mac Dubhagain- Who bought his schlager from Alejandro.

Cheers, mate!


However....

Lance: Are we in Inglewood? No... You're in my home...people who know the difference between good shit and bad shit, this is the house they come to. Now, my shit, I'll take the Pepsi challenge with that Amsterdam shit, any day of the fuckin' week.
Vincent: That's a bold statement.
Lance: This ain't Amsterdam, Vince.

[iomtalach]

I'm OK with hanwei's quality.

I'm pretty clear when I reccomend them that they are student/club-grade blades. There are many good upgrade options, and people should follow that path.

I would be very, very happy to see someone produce an even remotely better simulator for longsword and two-hander than hanwei, at the same price I get when I buy a dozen at a time. Running a WMA school can be pricey!

BTW...Any one else notice that there is now a 5th generation hanwei longsword? They modified them again. A little heavier feeling, a little stiffer...

[Fearghus Macildubh]

Thanks for the information folks. I appologize for not being specific in that I was asking about SCA Cut and Thrust rules. I'm a longsword geek and want to do blossfechten in the SCA, so I'm hoping the C&T rules are the way in.

[Fearghus Macildubh]

I'm also looking forward to our kingdom allowing us to use the hanwei hand and a half sword for C&T.

You think that would happen? Sweet! Alchem makes some nice longsword trainers as well. Here in Ansteorra, I've spoken with the KRM at some events and most of the C&T is focused on the Bolognese school, Marozzo in particular, using a sidesword. He was quite encouraging though when I told him I wanted to do longsword and probably messer/dussack or sword and buckler. As life would have it, mama military is sending me to Korea, so I'll be able to save up for a good sparring sword.

Cheers,
Fearghus

[jester]

If anyone knows of a longsword simulator that looks remotely like a longsword and can be used in Cut and Thrust, please let me know.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

Meridies just approved the Hanwei Practical H&H for experimentation officially. You could look into the new Hanwei's that are coming out as well.

[Baron Alejandro]

If anyone knows of a longsword simulator that looks remotely like a longsword and can be used in Cut and Thrust, please let me know.

And acts like one too. I can make you a longsword that LOOKS vaguely correct out of melted-down paper clips and recycled PBR cans. I see them all the time. But I haven't come across one yet that ACTS correctly.

[ticeetal]

Greetings,

If you are looking for a more affordable alternative to steel, and don’t want to compromise with the somewhat questionable quality occasionally seen with the steel in the Hanwei practices, or the overly whippy fechtsword. Have you considered training with Aluminum? It’s cheaper, easier to maintain after practice (the file time is a lot less than filing out the steel Fechterspiel). The good thing about aluminum is that you can go all out in training and not worry about thrashing your good steel trainer. It’s a lot cheaper replacing aluminum blades as opposed to steel, and if you really plan to use them as you say you will eventually need to replace them. Also what I like about Dave’s he’ll make whatever design you are looking for to your specifications. Look at the AL trainers against the steel and wooden waster for comparison. The length and weight and balance are all comparable to the steel trainer. So if costs an issue go aluminum and save up for a quality steel trainer, you’ll appreciate you did.

Regards,
Odeane

Dave Baker Aluminum Trainers:
http://www.hollywoodcombatcenter.com/Home.html

Aluminum Trainers I use:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/10478654@N ... 678058034/

SwordCrafts in Canada (Another Aluminum Trainer Source)
http://www.myarmoury.com/review_sc_wast.php?print

[Jon Barber]

If anyone knows of a longsword simulator that looks remotely like a longsword and can be used in Cut and Thrust, please let me know.

The SRM has approved the latest version of the Hanwei practical hand-and-a-half sword for experimental use in C&T. It's up to each KRM to decide if they want to experiment with it.

Like Randy, I've found these to be just fine for longsword simulators. They don't weigh too much, balance decently if not superbly, handle well enough, flex enough and don't require an inordinate amount of maintenance. I think between his school and mine we have a fair amount of experience with his blade. I know we've been using them for longsword training every week for over a year now and they work just fine.

Are they top of the line? No - I have much higher quality trainers. But at that price point (especially when you have to buy enough to outfit students) they are just fine. At around $110 vs. $410 for an A&A Spada da Zogho they are hard to ignore.