When did you first see hounskull bascinets?

Cian of Storvik · Post by **Cian of Storvik** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:08 pm

Not trying to be a dink, but "Late 14th century" could be December 1399. Just sayin' is all.
-Cian

Andrew Young · Post by **Andrew Young** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 2:23 pm

Too true. But stylistically and technologically its not indicative of more advanced pieces in the latter 14th....especially in Italy.

It screams late 1360s to me. Ive seen some fresco work with similar visors dated contemporaneiously. (fragilistic expialidocious)

Armoured Air Bear · Post by **Armoured Air Bear** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:57 am

sorry I'm a little late to this thread. i have not read this yet in it's entirety, but I know of a piece of artwork showing a sidemounted visor as early as 1328. it is on the Met's website-I'll see if I can pull it up.

Aaron

Talbot · Post by **Talbot** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:22 am

Aaron,
I think the question is not side mounted visors but conical visors. I'd still like the picture though.

Armoured Air Bear · Post by **Armoured Air Bear** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:38 pm

okay. i just read it and see that now-thanks.

here i found the link. it's in the upper right corner on the left page-use the zoom option to see better. overall i find the form to be similar to those typically seen on klappvisors ("round face") but being sidemounted. almost a less globos form of the latter great bascinet "dog faced" visor perhaps?

http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_of_Art/v ... 54%2E1%2E2

Aaron

Cian of Storvik · Post by **Cian of Storvik** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 6:19 pm

One of the frustrating things is all the mis-information. I have a book that I really like from Osprey called "Poiters 1356: The capture of a king". And I love the illustrations, but they show all of these period pieces of artwork that date to late 14th and 15th century, and have comments like "the armies of poiters would have been just like this."....Um...really?

In one image, an illustration attributed to "Chroniques de France ou de St. Denis" shows a bunch of knights with similar round visors as above, and the caption says "The only real difference between these soldiers and those at the battle of poiters is the cut of their surcoats and the fact that their helmets have rounded rather then pointed 'dog-faced' visors."

Um...okay. If it's in an Osprey book then it must correct.
The bag sleeve jupons over armor that look suspiciously like late 14th century/early 15th to me. But shows what I know. I guess they had those in 1356 too! *shrug*
-Cian
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Strongbow · Post by **Strongbow** » Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:31 pm

I think it's Nicolle that wrote that book?

yeah, he doesn't provide anything like evidence that such equipment was actually used at poitiers.

But I do love graham Turners paintings in that one.

RandallMoffett · Post by **RandallMoffett** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:34 am

Cian,

Yeah that was not a good one for Osprey. Sadly some of the men in Turner's pictures are done very well but some of the rest of the book seem off. Some other Osprey's related to be careful with are the armies of crecy/poitiers or Agincourt... In the Crecy/Poitier one they have an effigy of 1414 in it!!!! Come on! With all the cool effigies from circa 1346 and 1356 the fact they did not put a related effigy is crazy. It is funny they use the effigies of men who doed decades after the battle and state because they were in the battle that would be the armour they wore...???

Osprey is good for a start. Find what you are looking for and research the info. Taking any osprey info without further research seems a dangerous.

RPM

Andrew Young · Post by **Andrew Young** » Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:45 pm

Remember fellas that dates we assign are based on the BEST AVAILABLE cross referencing THAT REMAINS.

So we can only arrive on a date that seems likely in most cases.

Yet as I was suggesting earlier in this thread, most dates can and should be pushed back about ten years.....not so much for widespread use....but for their entry into the market. We cant think of modern widgets having been cranked out and sitting in warehouses until delievered....all of which happens in a matter of months. Hand made things tend to obviously be slower in their creation, but also in their evolution. Thus over several years, an early pointed snout would gain popularity....but would also continue evolving. We have to think of something evolving and phasing in rather than suddenly hitting the streets.

Lorenz De Thornham · Post by **Lorenz De Thornham** » Mon May 12, 2008 6:09 pm

Bleddyn,

could you not be from a merchants family involved with the Hanseatic league (Blackheads); http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanseatic_League or a Knight who went to fight in Livonia, which many English and French Knights did?

And could the many Bascinets in effigys with rivet holes in the forehead region not be pivot points for Clap Visors ?

And could some one point me to the many illustrations of side mounted pointed visors in England?

Bleddyn De Caldicot · Post by **Bleddyn De Caldicot** » Mon May 12, 2008 6:15 pm

I could be many things. Im still fairly new to the SCA so I'm exploring my persona. Thanks for the idea, I'll look into it. Could be a way to incoperate my girlfriend's Icelandic persona