I am planning to build an aluminum/canvas Coat of Plates and stainless jackchains. I am not tied to a particular time period, economic class or geographic area for my persona yet.
my question is, what would the appropriate cloth underarmor be for this? My head is swimming after attempting to sort out all the different types of padded/quilted/stuffed/etc. Whats should I be researching?
I do plan to wear the cloth armor without the CoP or jackchains at times.
I participate is Amtgard (fast paced foam combat)
Overheating has been a real issue for me, so I am considering different materials to sew the cloth armor from. I know linen is highly recommended, but how does hemp cloth compare temperature wise?
I also hear about Fustian which I believe to be a cotton linen blend. I have assumed that 100% linen would breath better, but have no experience with fustian. I am open to non-period materials suggestions as well, if they offer an advantage and can be disguised.
Breathe-ability and allowing me to remain comfortable on the field are probably my top concerns for the fabric and type of textile armor I want to make.
any suggestions are appreciated,
-Rolgrim
Cloth Armor questions
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Konstantin the Red
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Welcome and well come to the Archive, Rolgrim.
Boy, I'll say you're "not tied to a particular time period..." The coat of plates is mid-14th and earlier, perhaps into the end of the 12th century, while jackchains are 16th, I believe.
The most detailed knowledge of coats of plates we have comes from the end of the CoP era, in the Wisby coats -- not quite state of the art for about 1360, but probably first-line equipment thirty years before.
However, a light to lightish quilted jack of the 16th-c. persuasion would do nicely with the jackchains and still protect you well. With Amtgard's armor rules, I suppose what you are after is a stuffed jack, with metal plates inserted within it, the jack's plates held in place by a hexagonal array of fine cord sort of quilting the whole affair. It was like an inexpensive, latter-day edition of a brigandine, whose heyday was the fifteenth century. Each stuffed-jack plate was about three inches across and had a hole in its center for the cords to pass through. The plates themselves were usually rough octagons -- but do file the edges smooth so they don't wear through your jack's shell. Stuffed jacks may be sleeveless, or short sleeved -- good ventilation there.
Doing it this way, integrated in time and place, rather than compromising scattered design/time elements together, allows you to take more pride in your personal gear: you know you weren't fudging at all, and that feels good, believe me. It's good enough that it's worth doing it, and really hardly any more actual effort in construction, and even the skill in making isn't too much greater.
We should be able to help you sort out questions, ideas, and methods of construction, so please do continue to pester us until you're ready. Is your budget for the project unusually large or small? That is, what would you be prepared to spend? What do you have for a shop and tools, either owned or borrowed?
For fabric, you can't go wrong with all linen. The stuff rides cool because of its long straight smooth fibers; it doesn't insulate much, and the people who use it swear they're not going back to anything else. A few people have been able to use linen-hemp blend I think, but I don't know where they got it. Do you overheat even if you really charge yourself up with a couple pints of water beforehand? As long as you can sweat, your body can regulate its temperature sufficiently well to keep you from collapse; the danger comes up if your body runs out of stuff to sweat with. As far as sweat replacement goes, don't overdose on Gatorade. Instead, take about two good swigs of G and then go to a pint or so of plain water. Two swigs of Gatorade will have done everything for your electrolytes you'll need; what your body needs after that is simply to replace water. Really, the secret to fighting in armor in an American summer is to pretend you're a cottonwood tree and suck up lots of water, then transpire it through all your exterior.
There are online fabric outfits that offer 100% linen at good discounts. If you're getting linen fabric to quilt inside with, you can get the really cheap stuff in the ridiculous prints. Then you can use the rather more expensive linen in the color you actually like for the outside.
Boy, I'll say you're "not tied to a particular time period..." The coat of plates is mid-14th and earlier, perhaps into the end of the 12th century, while jackchains are 16th, I believe.
The most detailed knowledge of coats of plates we have comes from the end of the CoP era, in the Wisby coats -- not quite state of the art for about 1360, but probably first-line equipment thirty years before.
However, a light to lightish quilted jack of the 16th-c. persuasion would do nicely with the jackchains and still protect you well. With Amtgard's armor rules, I suppose what you are after is a stuffed jack, with metal plates inserted within it, the jack's plates held in place by a hexagonal array of fine cord sort of quilting the whole affair. It was like an inexpensive, latter-day edition of a brigandine, whose heyday was the fifteenth century. Each stuffed-jack plate was about three inches across and had a hole in its center for the cords to pass through. The plates themselves were usually rough octagons -- but do file the edges smooth so they don't wear through your jack's shell. Stuffed jacks may be sleeveless, or short sleeved -- good ventilation there.
Doing it this way, integrated in time and place, rather than compromising scattered design/time elements together, allows you to take more pride in your personal gear: you know you weren't fudging at all, and that feels good, believe me. It's good enough that it's worth doing it, and really hardly any more actual effort in construction, and even the skill in making isn't too much greater.
We should be able to help you sort out questions, ideas, and methods of construction, so please do continue to pester us until you're ready. Is your budget for the project unusually large or small? That is, what would you be prepared to spend? What do you have for a shop and tools, either owned or borrowed?
For fabric, you can't go wrong with all linen. The stuff rides cool because of its long straight smooth fibers; it doesn't insulate much, and the people who use it swear they're not going back to anything else. A few people have been able to use linen-hemp blend I think, but I don't know where they got it. Do you overheat even if you really charge yourself up with a couple pints of water beforehand? As long as you can sweat, your body can regulate its temperature sufficiently well to keep you from collapse; the danger comes up if your body runs out of stuff to sweat with. As far as sweat replacement goes, don't overdose on Gatorade. Instead, take about two good swigs of G and then go to a pint or so of plain water. Two swigs of Gatorade will have done everything for your electrolytes you'll need; what your body needs after that is simply to replace water. Really, the secret to fighting in armor in an American summer is to pretend you're a cottonwood tree and suck up lots of water, then transpire it through all your exterior.
There are online fabric outfits that offer 100% linen at good discounts. If you're getting linen fabric to quilt inside with, you can get the really cheap stuff in the ridiculous prints. Then you can use the rather more expensive linen in the color you actually like for the outside.
"The Minstrel Boy to the war is gone..."
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Tibbie Croser
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Konstantin, are you talking about a 16th-century jack of plates? If so, the plates are smaller than three inches; they're more like one to one-and-a-half inches wide. I'm not aware of these jacks having sleeves; I'd like genuinely to find evidence of short-sleeved jacks of plates.
Apologies; I'm a Renaissance textile-armor buff.
Apologies; I'm a Renaissance textile-armor buff.
Flittie Smeddum of Dagorhir
Tibbie Croser of the SCA
Tibbie Croser of the SCA
Konstantin the Red wrote:Boy, I'll say you're "not tied to a particular time period..." The coat of plates is mid-14th and earlier, perhaps into the end of the 12th century, while jackchains are 16th, I believe.
I knew a rough idea about the timeperiod for CoP, but was completly unaware of Jackchains heyday. Knowing that makes this much easier. If i am going to take the time to craft armor, it only seems natural to have it all make sense together. I really appreciate the help.
Just did a little research on the only period reference to jackchains that I personally know about, The Martyrdom of St. Ursula's Companions and The Martyrdom of St. Ursula
It says it was painted late 15th century. Do you know of other referneces to jackchains? I imagine they are listed in wills and such.
Konstantin the Red wrote:However, a light to lightish quilted jack of the 16th-c. persuasion would do nicely with the jackchains and still protect you well.
Not that it is historical, but to fulfill the requirements of amtgard armor rules, the Padded cloth is defined as four layers of cloth sewn together OR Quilted cloth is defined as two layers of cloth with padding in between sewn together.
I had pictured something like a four layer pourpoint with grande assiette shoulders but that would be more 14th century I think, how long did that style last?
http://www.cottesimple.com/blois_and_sl ... erview.htm
This page talks about it in the mid 15th century and a bit later in womens fashion.
Is a pourpoint appropriate with a stuffed Jack?
Was this what you had in mind or some other type of textile armor?
Konstantin the Red wrote:With Amtgard's armor rules, I suppose what you are after is a stuffed jack, with metal plates inserted within it, the jack's plates held in place by a hexagonal array of fine cord sort of quilting the whole affair. It was like an inexpensive, latter-day edition of a brigandine, whose heyday was the fifteenth century. Each stuffed-jack plate was about three inches across and had a hole in its center for the cords to pass through. The plates themselves were usually rough octagons -- but do file the edges smooth so they don't wear through your jack's shell. Stuffed jacks may be sleeveless, or short sleeved -- good ventilation there.
Just to clarify, I am under the assumption that a Stuffed Jack the same as a Jack of Plates.
A Stuffed Jack would suit my needs really well, and just might breathe a little better.
Konstantin the Red wrote:We should be able to help you sort out questions, ideas, and methods of construction, so please do continue to pester us until you're ready. Is your budget for the project unusually large or small? That is, what would you be prepared to spend? What do you have for a shop and tools, either owned or borrowed?
For tools I have a rudimentary assortment in my personal possession, hacksaw, drill, files, sewing machine, etc.
A good friend owns a Boss tipman(sp) leather sewing machine, I have gotten to use the thing once and it works like a dream.
Another friend is just getting started working on aluminum armor, he has a bandsaw, dishing stump, a few hammers, etc.
A third friend works for a company that uses a waterjet metal cutting machine. his boss says he can use it for personal projects on downtime, but there hasn't been a down time for him in the last couple months.
Right now I am money poor and time rich, that said I have credit but shouldn't go crazy with it.
Getting it all listed out makes me wonder why I haven't gotten started sooner =)
Konstantin the Red wrote:For fabric, you can't go wrong with all linen. The stuff rides cool because of its long straight smooth fibers; it doesn't insulate much, and the people who use it swear they're not going back to anything else. A few people have been able to use linen-hemp blend I think, but I don't know where they got it. Do you overheat even if you really charge yourself up with a couple pints of water beforehand? As long as you can sweat, your body can regulate its temperature sufficiently well to keep you from collapse; the danger comes up if your body runs out of stuff to sweat with. As far as sweat replacement goes, don't overdose on Gatorade. Instead, take about two good swigs of G and then go to a pint or so of plain water. Two swigs of Gatorade will have done everything for your electrolytes you'll need; what your body needs after that is simply to replace water. Really, the secret to fighting in armor in an American summer is to pretend you're a cottonwood tree and suck up lots of water, then transpire it through all your exterior.
I have been concerned about staying hydrated. last spring is when I first started fighting I drank only water as usual, a liter bottle, but would run down fast. After it being suggested I went to gatoraide which helped some, but I don't think I have paid enough attention to pre hydrating and I will have to try the few swigs of gatoraide and switch to water trick. Great tips, thanks!
Konstantin the Red wrote:There are online fabric outfits that offer 100% linen at good discounts. If you're getting linen fabric to quilt inside with, you can get the really cheap stuff in the ridiculous prints. Then you can use the rather more expensive linen in the color you actually like for the outside.
I have gotten some fiber reactive dye and the supplies to go with it for dying my top layer of the pourpoint and Jack of plates
Flittie wrote:Konstantin, are you talking about a 16th-century jack of plates? If so, the plates are smaller than three inches; they're more like one to one-and-a-half inches wide. I'm not aware of these jacks having sleeves; I'd like genuinely to find evidence of short-sleeved jacks of plates.
what is the window for the jack of plates, when is it know to have first been mentioned? At the same time, how long did CoP last for the lower classes?
I really appreciate the help guys!
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Tibbie Croser
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If you're going for 15th century, I think a brigandine or padded jack might be more suitable for that period. The brigandine would have plates riveted inside the fabric. It would be a tailored garment, unlike the coat of plates. The padded jack wouldn't have metal plates; it would be multiple layers of linen quilted together. I'm afraid I don't know when the jack of plates arose. I don't know if it dates to the 15th century. Try searching the Archive for "jack of plates," "brigandine," "padded jack," and "quilted jack" and you may find more information. I know there have been topics on all of those.
If you really want to stay cool, and if the Amtgard rules would allow it, there's something called a buttonhole or eyelet jack. It's a quilted jack with reinforced eyelet holes close together all over it. There's a picture of one in the book The Armourer and His Craft by Charles Ffoulkes.
If you really want to stay cool, and if the Amtgard rules would allow it, there's something called a buttonhole or eyelet jack. It's a quilted jack with reinforced eyelet holes close together all over it. There's a picture of one in the book The Armourer and His Craft by Charles Ffoulkes.
Flittie Smeddum of Dagorhir
Tibbie Croser of the SCA
Tibbie Croser of the SCA
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Konstantin the Red
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You couldn't go wrong with following the jack plus jackchains of the fellow in the Memling Saint Ursula. I wonder who she's the patron saint of, now that I look at the whole picture? Archers? Bear hunters?
I understand "stuffed jack" to be a term for a jack-of-plates, the plates being the stuffing in this particular case.
Your tool situation looks plenty good enough, and gives us plenty to go on with specific tips.
I understand "stuffed jack" to be a term for a jack-of-plates, the plates being the stuffing in this particular case.
Your tool situation looks plenty good enough, and gives us plenty to go on with specific tips.
Rolgrim wrote:Just did a little research on the only period reference to jackchains that I personally know about, The Martyrdom of St. Ursula's Companions and The Martyrdom of St. Ursula
It says it was painted late 15th century. Do you know of other referneces to jackchains? I imagine they are listed in wills and such.
St. Ursula is the best visual we have of jackchains in the 15th century but they are listed in many places like wills, inventories, and muster rolls.
Rolgrim wrote:Not that it is historical, but to fulfill the requirements of amtgard armor rules, the Padded cloth is defined as four layers of cloth sewn together OR Quilted cloth is defined as two layers of cloth with padding in between sewn together.
Some extant jacks are simply 2 layers with raw cotton as stuffing. Check out my webpage on jacks: http://www.historiclife.com/Essays/Jacks.htm
And here is a pdf on the jacks I made and entered into an SCA A&S display: http://www.historiclife.com/pdf/KASF2008/Jacks.pdf
Rolgrim wrote:Is a pourpoint appropriate with a stuffed Jack?
Was this what you had in mind or some other type of textile armor?
Jacks can be early 15th century but they are more common mid to late 15th century. They were worn with a doublet and hose; I have a pdf on a complete archers outfit if it helps you out: http://www.historiclife.com/pdf/KASF200 ... Archer.pdf
Rolgrim wrote:Just to clarify, I am under the assumption that a Stuffed Jack the same as a Jack of Plates.
A jack is a cloth armor from the 15th and early 16th century and in that time there were jacks in inventories listed as being stuffed; some in maille and some in horn. A jack of plates is a cloth armor combined with metal plates where the metal is the main defense it might be the evolution of the "stuffed" jack but the term seems strictly 16th century.
Jack of the 15th century:
Jack of plates 16th century:
Rolgrim wrote:what is the window for the jack of plates, when is it know to have first been mentioned? At the same time, how long did CoP last for the lower classes?
Coat of plates was dying out in the 1360s and the Jack of plates is an early 16th century thing that was really popular in the late 16th c.
James B. wrote:Some extant jacks are simply 2 layers with raw cotton as stuffing. Check out my webpage on jacks: http://www.historiclife.com/Essays/Jacks.htm
And here is a pdf on the jacks I made and entered into an SCA A&S display: http://www.historiclife.com/pdf/KASF2008/Jacks.pdf
these are wonderful! lots for me to reuse here, thanks you for the links!
with the sleeveless jack, what weight linen cloth did you use for the 15 layers? It doesn't look as bulky as I would have guessed.
James B. wrote:Coat of plates was dying out in the 1360s and the Jack of plates is an early 16th century thing that was really popular in the late 16th c.
So I believe that pushes me towards Brigandine as I would still like to do a linen armor, with a metal/canvas armor over the top.
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Andrew Young
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Just a thought....would chains be considered a bit dangerous in SCA fighting? Length would be an issue for marshals Id imagine ??
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Living History & Accurately Formed 'SCA' Grade
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Living History & Accurately Formed 'SCA' Grade
-----online catalog coming this spring----
http://www.partsandtechnical.com
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Durasteel Corporation wrote:Just a thought....would chains be considered a bit dangerous in SCA fighting? Length would be an issue for marshals Id imagine ??
are you referring to jack chains? they attach with points to the shoulder, elbow and forearm.
http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=5635
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=70436
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=51604
http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=58608
While I don't personally participate in SCA, Jackchains seems no more dangerous than any other metal armor I see being worn in SCA or any other medieval recreation games.
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Konstantin the Red wrote:A few people have been able to use linen-hemp blend I think, but I don't know where they got it.
I just found a site that carries a hemp-linen blend http://www.hartsfabric.com/39145.html
I haven't seen the fabric, or worked with the website before... but I thought I would share.
-Rolgrim
Rolgrim wrote:with the sleeveless jack, what weight linen cloth did you use for the 15 layers? It doesn't look as bulky as I would have guessed.
I used linen in the 5.3oz weight; historical references say the English liked soft linen for jacks the best so I stayed away from canvas. The insides are also a mixed linen and cotton fiber; I think it was 70% linen and 30% cotton.