Help, how do I point these new legs?

Richard de Scolay · Post by **Richard de Scolay** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:17 pm

Hello,

I'm in a bit of a bind. I just today recieved my beautiful new 1380 spring steel arms and legs from Historic Enterprises. They arrived just in time to wear my new kit to my daughters elementary school for their medieval faire night on friday.

BUT, the legs have a leather flap riveted to the leg that is about 6 inches wide by an inch and a half high with 9 holes. Last week I made a support belt for the legs thinking I'd have a strap and buckle from the tops of the legs that I'd rivet to the belt. I don't mind changing my plans but I don't really know how this type of leather flap should be pointed. I don't have padded cuisses to point the legs to directly.

Help!...

Thanks,
--Richard

William Frisbee · Post by **William Frisbee** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 9:26 pm

Point them to your pourpoint or gambeson.

Richard de Scolay · Post by **Richard de Scolay** » Wed Mar 05, 2003 10:43 pm

EM, I can't really do that right now because I've only got a light black denim shirt. The gambeson I made is to heavily padded and very hot to wear for long periods. That's why I've gone the denim shirt route for now. I've sewn leather tabs to it for the arms and shoulders, but I don't think it is strong enough for the legs.

The only other idea I've thought of is to lace the legs to the belt. Basically punch 9 matching holes in the belt and run a string back and forth. Not the prettiest, but it can't be seen when my coat of plates is on.

Jeffrey Hedgecock · Post by **Jeffrey Hedgecock** » Thu Mar 06, 2003 12:46 am

Bernal,

It's nice to know you received the legs.

My suggestion is to punch a pair of holes in your belt somewhat toward the outside of each leg, then thread a strong lace of some sort through the holes so the ends hang down toward the leg harness. Then thread the laces through two adjacent holes in the leather arming tab that is riveted to the top of the cuisse and tie off, thus supporting the weight. I would like to mention also, that you should not buckle the uppermost strap too tight, as it will force the legs downward. It's ok to snug up the knee and greave strap, but just take the slack out of the cuisse strap.

The arming tab method is a typical medieval way of suspending leg harness. To the best of my 15+ years of research, straps were not used historically, so I don't set up my legs that way. I understand it is something SCA fighters do regularly, but I don't find it to be suitable for the armour I make, and I prefer the historical method on my own leg harness.

In the long term, I HIGHLY recommend getting a properly fitting arming coat, one that tightens about the hips for leg harness suspension, but that is somewhat loose in the upper body, so the pull from the leg harness does not translate into downward pressure on the shoulders. It's how my arming coat is set up and it works wonderfully.

Best of luck to you, and I hope to receive that email from you saying that the armour arrived safe and sound

------------------
Cheers,

Jeffrey Hedgecock,
Armourer, Historic Arms & Armour
http://www.historicenterprises.com
Maitre of The Red Company-1471
http://www.theredcompany-1471.org

[This message has been edited by Jeffrey Hedgecock (edited 03-05-2003).]

Richard de Scolay · Post by **Richard de Scolay** » Fri Mar 07, 2003 11:42 pm

Oh man do I have a lot to learn still.

Thanks for the advice Jeffrey, I'll definately have to try the arming coat approach.

Today I wore the legs for about 3 hours straight strapped via buckles to a belt. It didn't work that well at all. Not completely due to the belt approach but the belt didn't help much either. I had a front buckle and a side buckle on each leg. The front buckle was fairly loose to allow me to walk with the side belt carrying most of the weight.

Well, the belt sagged, the straps stretched and the legs rode lower and lower as the evening went on. Not having much of a waist was part of the problem. Fresh unstretched latigo was another problem. And not enough holes in the straps to sinch them back up was the final straw.

Oh well. I'm off to the Stone Dog Inn event tomorrow and will check out how others are hanging their legs.

Regards,
--Richard

Jeffrey Hedgecock · Post by **Jeffrey Hedgecock** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 1:52 am

I strongly recommend using as much medieval technology as possible. Our ancestors REALLY DID know what they were doing, as their lives depended on it.

And......there's no sense reinventing the wheel..........

I think when you get yourself a good arming coat and point the legs up, you'll be pretty surprised at how well our long dead kin knew how to wear armour.

------------------
Cheers,

Jeffrey Hedgecock,
Armourer, Historic Arms & Armour
http://www.historicenterprises.com
Maitre of The Red Company-1471
http://www.theredcompany-1471.org

Richard de Scolay · Post by **Richard de Scolay** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 2:32 am

Hey Jeffrey, speaking of not reinventing the wheel, how would you like to take a few snapshots of the details of how you point your legs to your arming coat. I'm especially interested in how tight things are and at what angles the points are at. I had trouble with the front buckles when my legs was back in mid stride. How does the arming coat method handle movement?

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 1:11 pm

IMHO Jeff's telling you right, and I'd especially note the necessity of a tight waist on the arming coat. A "C-belt" tends to ride down so that the bottom edge is below the point of the iliac cradle, and this restricts the lifting of your legs and makes you prematurely tired. An arming coat keeps that weight above the pelvic girdle, eliminating the binding of the hips. A "gambeson" is not made to support leg harness, and will transfer all the weight to your shoulders if you try to use it as a base garment - which is even more tiring.

While Jeff's steel cuisses are rigidly shaped to the thigh, my splinted cuisses aren't and will try to rotate a bit. The front (center of leg) set of points stop that rotation, but must be laced a little more loosely than the side points to allow the kneeling that SCA combat requires (at least for me it does).

You might for now make a pourpoint, much simpler to make than an arming coat, but you won't be able to point your coulters and vambraces to it directly. If it served no other purpose than to support the leg harness it would be worthwhile.

Jeffrey Hedgecock · Post by **Jeffrey Hedgecock** » Sat Mar 08, 2003 5:10 pm

Richard,

My current arming coat is almost 10 years old and in pretty lousy shape, not to mention that I've gained weight since I originally made it and it barely fits. I'm in the midst of making up a new one for my new harness. When I get that and my new leg harness complete, I'd be happy to put up a page about proper leg suspension as it relates to an arming coat.

In the interim, Bob has a very good idea for supporting your leg harness by a pourpoint, that is, a sleeveless garment with a "girdle" peplum, or waist area. They're simple to make and may be an historical garment, though we haven't come up with definitive research to document it, though the currently available evidence does point to such a garment as being an effective solution to some harnessing issues.

Check out "The Dragon" journal of the European 'Company of Saynte George' for details. Like us in The Red Company-1471, they are a late 15th century group, but select elements of their research can be applied to earlier in the century, if done with care and cross-referencing.

------------------
Cheers,

Jeffrey Hedgecock,
Armourer, Historic Arms & Armour
http://www.historicenterprises.com
Maitre of The Red Company-1471
http://www.theredcompany-1471.org

[This message has been edited by Jeffrey Hedgecock (edited 03-08-2003).]

Richard de Scolay · Post by **Richard de Scolay** » Mon Mar 10, 2003 12:24 pm

I think I've got a temporary solution that will work until I have time to make a proper pourpoint.

Yesterday I picked up a back support belt from Home Depot. It is a wide elasitic belt with a large velcro closure in front and elastic suspenders. It has many of the same properties that a pourpoint would have and has the added benefit of being able to be tightened even around my ample stomach without slipping down.

I want to be as authentic as possible and will attempt to make a pourpoint when time permits.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions.